No, scrapings don't identify allergens. I wish!

But scrapings are still a first step.

From above:

The staph and yeast infections are usually secondary to something else - i.e. allergies where the skin is getting scratched and bitten so yeast and bacteria can be introduced. Seborrhea is also sometimes a cause - an oily skin condition. But whatever the cause, the yeast will usually keep recurring if the reason isn't dealt with. To confirm yeast you need to get some scrapings done by the vet - I would recommend scrapings from between the toes, belly, ears, groin area, and where the dog seems to be greasy feeling. The vet can look under the microscope right there and tell you IF there is yeast, and how much, and where.


Scraping are also taken when external parasite are suspected (like mites).


I'm a little concerned that the dog is still shaking his head. Have you looked inside today?


Are you gently massaging the ear, using the ear flap, after you do the ear drops?


" .... his hind quarter area and each side of the base of his tail and he nips and licks the very tip of his tail" is fleas. The white sheet test is almost superfluous when the dog nips and licks at the base of the tail and the rest of the tail.

Did we explain how to make the bath a flea bath? Flea shampoo is not necessary; the anti-fungal/anti-bacterial shampoo is what he needs most now, IMO, and the required prolonged contact with the lather before thorough rinsing can also be a flea ridder. But I would urge that someone else be vacuuming and dumping the vacuum bag in the outside trash, and laundering his blanket or whatever he sleeps on/with, while he is getting the bath. Also, when did he last have the flea topical (Frontline or whatever it is) applied?

Post back if we didn't go through the bath steps, and I'll find and link that from another thead. There are steps to keep fleas from running up onto the head, which you don't want to happen because you don't want to bathe his head vigorously and get water in his ears.

If scrapings don't identify allergens, then how do you identify them all, especially 45 of them?

So I need to find a dermo vet to get an accurate analysis of the skin scrapings it sounds like.

I look in his ears daily now and after our walks. Just oily which was said to be normal from the drops. I little wax here and there. The drops don't say to massage, just 8 drops into the ear canal. The flush we message and let him shake it out. I will be calling to make an appt tomorrow just to be sure nothing is going on with the ear as its been almost a week and he is still shaking his head and its not getting less frequent. This morning he actually whimpered a little as I was wiping with a cotton ball before I put the drops in ( has to be dry and clean before the drops go in). He usually puts up a struggle, but never has whined when I got to the canal. And late afternoon and this morning a few times he has been scratching his ears and then shaking his head...This is so frustrating!

The white sheet test. we did it 3 times. brushed and brushed...found ONE flea the first time . Checked for flea dirt...any speck we saw, put on a wet paper towel and smeared...nothing. So I guess the advantix is working. It's he original Advantix, not the Advantix II. I did find a few dried skin flakes/scabs on th heart which I hadn't noticed with a regular brushing.
As he is playing in his x-pen as I'm writing his, he has nipped and licked his back end a few times...

I have not seen an explanation for a flea bath. That would be great. I'm working on the anti fungal/antibacterial shampoo now. Was supposed to be here Friday, but what came wasn't the right shampoo (different vet). So no malaseb shampoo. Hindsight., I should have just ordered it online and it would have been here, so now I'm trying to find a shampoo from a local store that meets the criteria of what I need to bathe him with. I'll still order the malaseb shampoo as everyone here and the reviews say its great stuff.

As far as moisture in the ears, might be a dumb question, but isn't that essentially what the drops an flush are?


And from an above post i didnt see an answer to :

If overuse of antibiotics can complicate a yeast problem like you mentioned as it takes the good with the bad... Since he is on them for the staff, and now the infection in the ear, Would it be beneficial to use some probiotics or other supplements to balance or boost his immune system? I've seen a menu of recommended supplements in a Q&A on this site for actual ongoing yeast and skin problems, but not sure if that is needed at this stage until we know exactly what's going on and how bad, reoccurring problem, etc.

Also a lot of things I've been reading say for yeast issues a raw diet with no grains, potatoes or veggies is key. Well, from what I see on the THK THRIVE, some ingredients are potatoes and veggies. Is this more for an ongoing yeast problem? Not necessarily what we are dealing with?

What about a cleanse or detox after the antibiotics are done?

Thank you.

If scrapings don't identify allergens, then how do you identify them all, especially 45 of them?
Reliably? With intradermal testing (so-called scratch tests). Unreliably, with loads of false positives and false negatives? With blood tests.


So I need to find a dermo vet to get an accurate analysis of the skin scrapings it sounds like.

Any GP vet can do scrapings and, as Lori posted above, "To confirm yeast you need to get some scrapings done by the vet - I would recommend scrapings from between the toes, belly, ears, groin area, and where the dog seems to be greasy feeling. The vet can look under the microscope right there and tell you IF there is yeast, and how much, and where." This could even make up part of the decision about whether you need a derm vet.


I look in his ears daily now and after our walks. Just oily which was said to be normal from the drops. Maybe. The ear drops can give the ears an oily appearance when they spread out over the skin inside the ears.


The flush we message and let him shake it out. I will be calling to make an appt tomorrow just to be sure nothing is going on with the ear as its been almost a week and he is still shaking his head and its not getting less frequent. I agree that the vet needs to see.


This morning he actually whimpered a little as I was wiping with a cotton ball before I put the drops in ( has to be dry and clean before the drops go in). He usually puts up a struggle, but never has whined when I got to the canal. And late afternoon and this morning a few times he has been scratching his ears and then shaking his head...This is so frustrating!
He needs the vet, asap IMO, and I would use this exact description to the vet.

The white sheet test. we did it 3 times. brushed and brushed...found ONE flea the first time

Then you proved fleas. (One flea does not live anywhere alone, like a lone wolf. Where there is one, there are more. In addition, one exposure can drive a flea-allergic dog crazy. Also in addition, you have seen the dog nip at the classic flea area. So the dog is being bitten.

As he is playing in his x-pen as I'm writing his, he has nipped and licked his back end a few times...

Each time was a flea biting him.

I have not seen an explanation for a flea bath. That would be great. I'm working on the anti fungal/antibacterial shampoo now. Was supposed to be here Friday, but what came wasn't the right shampoo (different vet). So no malaseb shampoo. Hindsight., I should have just ordered it online and it would have been here, so now I'm trying to find a shampoo from a local store that meets the criteria of what I need to bathe him with. I'll still order the malaseb shampoo as everyone here and the reviews say its great stuff. I sent you a PM of the active ingredients you are looking for.

As far as moisture in the ears, might be a dumb question, but isn't that essentially what the drops an flush are? They are not water. And the flush contains a drying ingredient. Keep water out of his ears. (When his ears are healthy again, don't use flush either. Don't introduce ANY moistiue to a healthy ear.)


If overuse of antibiotics can complicate a yeast problem like you mentioned as it takes the good with the bad... Since he is on them for the staff, and now the infection in the ear, Would it be beneficial to use some probiotics or other supplements to balance or boost his immune system? I've seen a menu of recommended supplements in a Q&A on this site for actual ongoing yeast and skin problems, but not sure if that is needed at this stage until we know exactly what's going on and how bad, reoccurring problem, etc.
It's staph (short for staphylococcus).. Yes, probiotics are very good. I give my allergic dog probiotics every day. And I assume the dog is on fish oil and E, right?

When he is actually on antibiotics, the probiotics are given halfway between the pill doses. Not every vet does this, but then not every vet talks about probiotics at all. (I prefer to give them along with the antibiotics, between doses, so that the gut has at least some chance of repopulation, and certainly continue it after the protocol to help re-establish the normal gut population. Here's an article about getting one with PREbiotics. I recommend the non-fiber ones for this dog. You'll see what I mean in the article: http://www.whole-dog-journal.com/issues/15_4/features/Prebiotics-and-Canine-Digestive-Health_20496-1.html


Also a lot of things I've been reading say for yeast issues a raw diet with no grains, potatoes or veggies is key. Well, from what I see on the THK THRIVE, some ingredients are potatoes and veggies. Is this more for an ongoing yeast problem? Not necessarily what we are dealing with? You're right .... not yet something to be overly concerned with. But I'd at least be completely avoiding grains. You are, right?

"This morning he actually whimpered a little as I was wiping with a cotton ball before I put the drops in ( has to be dry and clean before the drops go in). He usually puts up a struggle, but never has whined when I got to the canal."

You don't insert anything into the canal, even a little way, right?

No, I don't insert anything into the actual canal, I worded that wrong. Just the outer area that u can see, I wipe with a cotton ball.

I am gonna call our vet tomorrow morning, hopefully he is open.


"Don't introduce any moisture to a healthy ear" What about swimming, or the beach, etc?

I will order up some probiotics and read that article.

Completely avoiding grains....raw meals, and the THK with the potatoes and veggies I mentioned. For treats I've been using the Redbarn meat rolls (chicken and the beef ones so far) and I just looked at the ingredients and noticed wheat flour as an ingredient...

I would not get water into this yeasty ear.

I would not give wheat in any form.

Do you have Amazon Prime? If you do, this could be there Wednesday for $4 shipping:
http://www.amazon.com/DVM-Pharmaceuticals-Malaseb-Shampoo-16-9-Ounce/dp/B00061MP5G


OK, found the flea bath hint in a post from me on another thread:

"A hint about the bath .... fleas tend to be on the body rather than the skull. So at the beginning of the flea-removal bath, you want to apply the shampoo and lather around the neck first, in a wide band completely lathered well into the fur. This helps a lot, IME, to prevent the body fleas from migrating to the face and ears, which are not easy areas to shampoo. (Plus you don't want to introduce moisture to a healthy ear.) Then get the lather all over the body below that band. Then have the dog sit for 5 to 10 minutes lathered up. Tiny high-value treats are a help here, and so are such tricks as "shake paw."

Rinse very very thoroughly. IME, baths are not the drying event that many think (I learned this from the excellent book by Shawn Messonnier http://leerburg.com/971.htm ), but not getting all the shampoo out can indeed by very drying, as can using a shampoo made for humans (very different pH)."



In this situation, the shampoo will be an anti-fungal/anti-bacterial shampoo, and the bottle will give the time it needs to stay on before rinsing. Malaseb is NOT the only one, but it's the easiest to find without a prescription.


(Ideally, this would be done just before applying the Advantix. If you applied it a few days ago, though, you can still do this bath.)

A dog who is allergic to flea saliva (and this can happen at any age, although usually starting over age 1, commonly at age 3 or so) typically gets worse rather than better. (Flea saliva contains dozens of antigens, from amino acids to polypeptides and many more.)

Any allergy, including flea hypersensitivity, can cause an overgrowth in either normal yeast or normal staph (both present on healthy dogs), or both.

In addition, a dog with flea allergy can suffer from recurring tapeworms (from biting at and swallowing the fleas).

So getting rid of fleas, IMO, is big here, along with giving a good try to treating the yeast topically (drops in ears; bath for other skin).

Fleas don't reproduce on the dog, which is why the environment needs to be de-flead while the dog is being bathed. The larvae are not on the dog; they are in his bed, in the carpet, in area rugs, etc. In fact, this is where most of the fleas will be, too. The dog is removing them from his body as fast and as furiously as he can, so even though he is continually being bitten, the biggest population is usually in his living area.

On a dog who is not allergic, the topical is kind of a bait-and-poison. That is, the flea jumps on the dog, bites, and is killed.

When the dog is allergic, though, this isn't good enough. The dog is damaging his protective shield, his skin, and this is where malassezia and/or staph gain a big toe-hold.

You may indeed need a derm vet referral. But for right now, particularly in this holiday weekend, to keep this from escalating, I'd de-flea the home as assiduously as possible, and bathe the dog as often as possible. I'd probably also ask the vet about doing the Advantix every three weeks, since you're seeing so much activity (yes, biting and nipping at the rump is flea activity). And I'd keep up with the ears (including a visit about the continued head-shaking), checking them every day.

Or .... I don't know much about Advantix II ..... does it repel as well as kill fleas?

I use Honest Kitchen a lot now as a supplement to chicken backs. Where we live it is really really hard to get RMB's other than chicken backs. So I feed the Zeal, which is grain free fish, Thrive grain free chicken and Force grain free beef. We haven't noticed a problem with more yeast since using this food. I wouldn't feed him a diet that is high in sweet potatoes but all the veggies are fine.

After you have talked to your vet about the scrapings, and if you do them, post back on the findings and then we can help you decide whether you need a derma vet or not. If he is just having a flea problem, we can solve that first and see if everything else falls into place. If not, then think derma vet.

So in summary, if it were me, I would do the following:
#1 Get the ear looked at again and make sure it's on the right track
#2 Get the scrapings done and see if there's yeast - they will also see any bacteria that may be there
#3 Get the fleas under control in the house and on the dog so you can be sure that's not an ongoing issue.

After doing those things, update us on how he's doing!

PS


This is uber-important:

While the bath is happening is when you would vacuum thoroughly, disposing of the vacuum bag outside (not in the indoor trash) and the dog's bedding changed. If it can't go right into the washer filled with hot water, then it needs to go outside or into a closed plastic bag until it can.

This isn't a one-time thing, I'm sorry to say; it will take a round of these actions to knock back the flea population (and again, it doesn't matter whether you see or are bothered by them; a dog with flea hypersensitivity is affected by a single exposure).

Even if the dog is not flea-allergic, something triggered this staph/yeast overgrowth cycle. Fleas exacerbate just about all derm challenges, and anyway, a dog with any kind of allergy often has (or will develop) a flea allergy.

IOW, fleas are bad for this dog .... even more than for a dog who is not suffering from skin staph and yeast overgrowth.

I've been thinking ......


Since you don't have the antifungal shampoo and it's a holiday weekend so you probably can't get the scrapings done immediately ..... it's a tough call.

You don't want to do scrapings right after you have altered the yeast population with an antifungal. (The scrapings give info about that yeast population.)

Can you post back about the scheduling of these two things? I'd want to know what scrapings show before the antifungal shampoo, but I wouldn't want to hold off indefinitely on a bath for this guy.

Will do, headed out right now to run around. I'm gonna call the vet in the morning. I'm gonna try and find a shampoo that has the same active ingredients as the masaleb. If not I'm gonna order it omline when I get back. Let you know what I find....