Quote: Connie Sutherland

 Quote: Brian Drake

As for back changing I have been trying to do that also. For some reason I am the one that he like to play keep away. He retrieves to my wife or daughter. I been really working at it using good and my makers for brining toy back after tossing it.

I guess I have to keep at it. He loves to grow, jump, and bark to get me to chase him. I make a point of just standing there or moving away to bring to me but no luck.

I will set up a separate scenario to do retrieve again and see if this helps me. Seems I may have to use good to get it done for now. I do t think the game of tug is over powering enough that he associates retrieving the tug as rewarding

Back-chaining just means teaching the last step first.

From terms at Karen Pryor's site:

"Back-chaining"
"Training the last behavior in a chain first, then training the next-to-last behavior, then the behavior before that, and so on. Back-chaining takes advantage of the Premack principle."

Why are you using "good" here? Is it your IB for if he's on his way to you?

I would strongly urge that you separate the links in the "retrieve" command. Time spent on foundation is never time wasted. That is, "Keep at it" is not what I recommend. That link is weak. Make it solid and THEN go back to the retrieve command chain.

I am not using good for this.

I am not following what you mean by separating the links for this command. If he brings me back the ball or what ever I am using then I mark "yes" and pick up the ball then give reward. He is very reluctant to bring it back to me sometimes but if I use food he will.

 Quote: Connie Sutherland

 Quote: Brian Drake

... I still am not sure what to say when I out him but dont necessarily want a re bite on the tug. I want to tell him he did the right thing for "out" but then transition to obedience then mark yes for following sit, stand, down etc which would allow a re bite to the tug for reward.

OK, the dog was doing basic ob. Then mark, with tug for reward. Then "out" and a marker for the out.

Now another command. "Sit," whatever. Then marker with tug back for the reward.

I'm missing something.

Tug tug tug, "out", "yes" then at this point he is released and wants to re bite. This is point where I am having trouble understanding what to do next. I mark "yes" for the release but dont want a re bite because I want to ask for OB next. What I do is take the tug away after the "yes" and then ask for Sit, down, stand etc. If he does it then "yes" I bring the tug back out for a re bite as reward for the OB.

Is this the best way?

 Quote: Connie Sutherland

"I just took him to a park to play tug and work on engagement. What a different dog. Its like he doesnt know what a tug is and just wants to lay in the grass or sniff. I keep in the back of my head he is 5 months old so I was patient. I just kept marking "yes" for looking at me until I went through all my treats. Tried some more tug but no success. At the end I got him interested in my hand towel so I used it instead and got that tug energy I needed. I transitioned to 2 different tugs a little time on each then ended quick trying to leave him wanting more instead of exhausting it. "





Have you spent almost all his tug-playtime indoors? Was this his first time with a tug in the outdoors?


BTW, "ended quick trying to leave him wanting more instead of exhausting it" was a good move, IMHO.

Sorry for the confusion and I really feel like I owe you some Starbucks

I only shot the video inside because its dark so early now. I dont ever train in the house or tug because the home needs to be the calm/quite zone.

He will tug like a psycho in the back yard or even the front yard with people or cars around etc. The park was his first time today because I am trying to step up the distractions. I see you are right and need to find something more but not the park just yet.

I realized I wasnt going to get much so I remembered the "engagement trap" talked about by Ed and Michael. I just stood there with a dog park about 25yrds away and kids kicking a ball about 15yrds a way. I waited for him to look at me then marked "yes" with food reward. I have a command for looking at me so I did that and when he did I marked "yes" and food reward. I got most all the obedience in but not with energy. He did it but was slow and sluggish. Like a moron I watched the dogs in the park a bit and when I looked at Jagger he was looking at me, lol. I about choked trying to catch it fast for the mark and reward, hahaha. He kept focus on me about 50% the time. I even kept him looking at me for duration using "good" then "yes" as a release. By what you are saying I guess he did quite well.

1 hour into it he realized nothing new was going to happen around him so it was my turn. I got a solid 15 mins tug started on a hand towel then moved to a leather tug and then a jute tug. He was growling and really going for it. I stopped and put it all away and proceeded to leave. He tried to protest and down/stay but I had to pull his harness and tell him "lets go". My goal was to leave him wanting it more and unsatisfied now that he gave me what I wanted.

Tomorrow I will be at the training class. I wont participate with the corrections for training and this time the puppy trainer is going to be there. I will blow them away with my markers and even though I am not as good as you guys I know its something they arent familiar with and when they see Jagger do his OB with out touching a leash or using hand signals I think it will speak for itself that corrections are NOT the BEST method.

Aside from that I am planning on using the distractions there as more opportunity to work on engagement. They also have obstacle courses he seems to really love. He knows "hop" and "over" for jumping or climbing. If he wont bite with energy I will just go with what he is comfortable with and make it fun for him.

Last time it disgust me to see people pissed at their dogs and yanking on prong collars. One guys German was belly up and ears folded back for a down/stay at his side. Yanking the leash up and shoving the butt down isnt how to teach sit. The dog clearly looked like he had been corrected to the point of ruining his relationship with the owner. Another lady kept getting pissed and cussing when the dog would just look at her as if "sit" is just something dogs know when they are born. In my opinion nobody there in the class took the time to show the dogs what to do first outside the class.

Sorry to get off topic but my point is I really appreciate you guys helping me here. I watched all the videos (50+hrs) and plan to again but sometimes having another person explain it another way helps. Connie you have been ever so patient and kind and I really really thank you.

With some more help from you guys I inspire to have an amazing dog that was trained the right way. I need some tweaking and fine tuning and I hope I dont over do my welcome. Please hang in there with me and know that I am very grateful for the time spent helping me. I dont know if its weird or not but if someone is willing to offer advice over the phone that would be awesome.

More vids to come this weekend for some critique. I tried tonight but its dark and it didnt work out so good.

Quote: Brian

'"I watched Cindy in the Ellis Tug video she "outs" then says down, sit etc followed by "yes" and goes again. ... That bridge is where I am confused".

This can be confusing to a beginner.
What Cindy is doing here is putting know behaviors together. This is what you'll strive for throughout your training.
After Cindy gives the out she asks for two different known behaviors that the dog knows well. The sit and the down. This is chaining two known behaviors together before the marker "Yes" is given. When putting behaviors together the dog MUST know both of them well.
Cindy's "Yes" is her marker, not a bridge. A bridge would be a "good" to let the dog know it's doing the behavior you want and you want to lengthen that behavior.
Yu seem to be using "good" as a marker. Nothing wrong with that. You can use any word you like for the marker and the bridge but you must be consistent with both.
some don't use a bridge, just the marker. That depends on the dog. One of my GSDs is very clear headed and will hold any behavior until I say otherwise. The other GSD needs a calm, quiet "goooood" to hold his position/behavior.
When yo go to class and show your marker work just remember to NOT let it get to your head. some of the more experienced trainers don't like that. Be Humble. don't tell them why your "stuff" is better.
There is an old saying in the dog training world that you hear often after a trial.
"My dog never did that before".
This often happens when you go in a ring or on a field with you head full of yourself.
We ALL learned that the hard way.

Thanks Bob. I learned to shut up, lol. Other then the full gorwn police dogs at the facility my dog age group is the only one doing OB. A trainer last week heard me use markers and asked if I got that from Michael Ellis. I just kept humble as you say and he seemed impressed. I didnt push my method I just said I use markers for OB and left it at that.

I am using "yes" as a marker and "good" as the bridge. Last night I "out" him and got 3 behaviors before using "yes" to release to the tug for reward.

I am confused as what to say the moment I "out" him. I want to mark "yes" for letting go but thats also the mark I use which offers him a bite on the tug. I dont know what to say at that juncture. I get that doing OB even 1 behavior or 5 will release with my mark "yes" to the tug for reward. The moment he "outs" what do I say? Right now I still use "yes" on the out and take the tug and move it behind my back or to my side when I am about to ask for OB following the "out" because as soon as I use "yes" for marking the out he understands that as his reward to come bite the tug. So basically me taking the tug away after saying "yes" right after his out is like I didnt give him a reward for the "out".

I hope that makes sense. I am really trying here and dont know all the abbreviations you guys are using but think I have figured them out, lol.

Hope I can help clarify and don't add to any confusion...

First, make sure the dog learns that the bite/rebite is a reward. Start with a "Yes" and immediate rebite for the out. Work that separately from OB to proof it (make sure he understands it thoroughly). Connie has given you advice on how to do that. Add distraction and new locale for that and proof before adding additional behaviors or duration.

THEN, add the bridge for the out and give an OB command. Jagger will quickly learn that, at some point, a reward in the form of a bite is coming.

I would also like to recommend that you add a beginning and an end to your sessions, if you're not doing that already. You and your dog will benefit by eventually learning that, when the command "Done" is given, there is no more expectation. You won't feel that you have to keep rewarding for compliance, and the dog will relieve some of the stress of training.

Soon, you will both be at the point where you don't have to mark every out.

"I am not following what you mean by separating the links for this command. If he brings me back the ball or what ever I am using then I mark "yes" and pick up the ball then give reward. He is very reluctant to bring it back to me sometimes but if I use food he will."


OK, now all I am talking about here is the retrieve:

You are having problems with the dog bringing and releasing the item to you. In addition, I hear that you are using food as a bribe to get the item back.


The retrieve isn't one action, like a position command (like sit) ... it's, several actions, or behaviors.

That is, it's a chain of behaviors.

Back-chaining means teaching the last link in the chain first.

I would retrain your retrieve, back-chaining the teaching.

IMO, back-chaining the retrieve leads to never encountering "chase me."



http://leerburg.com/flix/player.php/214/Clix_Dumbbells_and_Training_the_Retrieve_with_Michael_Ellis/
Listen to what Ed describes at the beginning about Michael Ellis back-chaining the retrieve.

Now scroll down here to “Back-chaining the retrieve with the clicker” for the steps typed out.
http://www.clickertraining.com/node/111



I understand that you are playing fetch and not teaching a formal retrieve, but for me, back-chaining for fetch works best too. I start with the "give" (or drop), the last behavior in "fetch," when the dog gives me the item.

There's also two-ball for getting the ball back.

Do you know that?

I dont know the 2-ball.

I did see Cindy reply to this question in the Q&A. She said have someone use a leash on a harness and circle the dog back to me until he gets that bringing it back is more rewarding then taking to play keep away or chew on. It makes sense.

 Quote: Duane Hull

Hope I can help clarify and don't add to any confusion...

First, make sure the dog learns that the bite/rebite is a reward. Start with a "Yes" and immediate rebite for the out. Work that separately from OB to proof it (make sure he understands it thoroughly). Connie has given you advice on how to do that. Add distraction and new locale for that and proof before adding additional behaviors or duration.

THEN, add the bridge for the out and give an OB command. Jagger will quickly learn that, at some point, a reward in the form of a bite is coming.

I would also like to recommend that you add a beginning and an end to your sessions, if you're not doing that already. You and your dog will benefit by eventually learning that, when the command "Done" is given, there is no more expectation. You won't feel that you have to keep rewarding for compliance, and the dog will relieve some of the stress of training.

Soon, you will both be at the point where you don't have to mark every out.

So during tug I ask "out" and if my goal is some OB to follow I use a bridge like "good" then start asking for OB. Once he does the OB I say "yes" and present the tug for reward.

If that is what you are saying then it makes sense. I was doing that a bit and it worked best. If I "out" and mark "yes" then he comes to bite it again. If I use a bridge "good" he looks at me for what to do next. I hope this is the right way.