"I forward her to many breeders, shelters, clubs and trainers. So she can get to hang around (high-drive) dogs for the next few years before she gets one. So she can personally experience the easiest, and the "most extreme" cases of dogs."

Yes!


As for the bottom paragraph of that same post, I'd work at getting past someone laughing at me. Focusing on it, being enmeshed in it, is 100% counterproductive. Why do I care what they say?

Anyone who tells a young handler that not only do they lack experience, BUT ALSO WILL NEVER GAIN EXPERIENCE, is obviously silly. Wallowing in anger about something so silly .... is tempting, but also kind of silly.


As for the question of working dogs (all high-drive dogs) ....

Yes, owning any dog is a major commitment, in my book. Totally agreed!

But there is another big thing to address after that commitment has been examined and understood and made, and that's the drive and energy of the dog, which are in large part connected to the breed. (There are different breeds for a reason.)

There are individuals within the breed, of course. But as Tracy said, there are reasons why "Newfoundlands aren't police dogs, and daschunds don't herd sheep. Some breeds are more difficult for the average owner, and the people involved with those breeds are doing the responsible thing by dissuading casual ownership of them."



And after I was done laughing at the obviously unfounded idea that a person inexperienced with drivey breeds can't work to gain the know-how and experience needed, I'd do what you suggested .... I'd "hang around (high-drive) dogs for the next few years ... (and) personally experience (them)."

I feel like people took my posts and ignored some things i have said. And hyped up other things, warping them into something i have never said.


Again. I will copy and paste form my other posts so everything is clear. And i will explain the reason for my OP rant.

I SAID THIS! "Now, i am not saying these breeds are not what they are. Because yes. Many people, in fact MOST people, would go absolutely nuts if they just decided to bring home a dutchie."



Anyways...

This is what im coming around my original post. Lets see if we all agree.


PEOPLE i have met MANY who believe JUST because THEY have owned a certain breed that NORMALLY requires a more dedicated knowledgeable handler than others, that means they are BETTER HANDLERS than other automatically. THEY have "true" dog experience. When a person who owns a breed that is typically docile, he is automatically lesser of a owner, handler. Less educated, experienced ECT. You know the deal.

THIS IS WRONG? CAN WE ALL AGREE TO THIS?

Just owning as certain breed of dog does not say what type of handler trainer owner you are. It means you own a dog of a breed.

Have you ever met a border collie owner, who has completely ruined the dog?! Who in your mind should own NO DOG AT ALL?

Do you know an owner who has goldens, that is crazyily dedicated to her/his dogs, no matter what.
And changes her or his life accord to the dogs. Lives around the dogs. Without a second thought to it. And is happy with it all.
And in your mind, would be far more qualified for a border collie, than the first owner who actually HAS the border collie, ruins the dog, Pushes the dog so, or holds the dog back. Yet brags about owning a "high drive dog automatically makes her in with the more dedicated, better handlers and owners."

THIS is what experiences i have had with the girl groups i met with. And online. And people at trials. ECT.


No, they are not talking about protecting the breed.
Sure, to an extent they are.
But LAUGHING, ganging up, giggling.
Acting superior as a handler, owner person, because they simply all own a breed that is typically this or that way compared to the TYPICALLY docile, easy going breed you own. ECT


You agree that these girls (and occasionally a boy or man), and groups are simply "protecting the breed they own" when you are not allowed to chat (or hang when at groups and seminars) with them as equals, because they have a certain breed. And that means they have "dog experience" yet you do not.

So they don't have much to say other than "yeah you have this breed, you have no clue what life is with our breed, its tough, we are more dedicated.
We own a breed that acts like that breed your interested in owning in 10 years. (to summon things up) That's why we would
automatically do BETTER with that breed."


Sad thing is the good dog they brought home from a great breeder as a pup, shivers in fear when in the ring our while working. ECT. (runs as sow as possible tail constantly tucked)

Or the dog eats the owner/handler up in the ring, (and outside it too) as they have no control whatsoever.

Yet they tell me how good of a handler i would be with a breed. Simply because of the breeds name i own?

When i pull out my terribly bred, sickly dog, who was severely neglected and was terrified of almost everything. I get her in the ring she is all eyes on me and is NOW (after many years of relentless work) confidently tolerant of all in her surroundings, works confidently, and knows what needs to be done so we can go home.

The number of people who are looking for a dog that would put that on hold to spend "the next few years" researching dogs before getting one seems optimistic. It's good advice. I just don't think it's realistic.

And it avoids the obvious. It's entirely possible to find a dog that matches ones experience and living situation by simply selecting a well-bred puppy from the right breed--and being honest with the breeder. Or find a rescue organization that temperament tests their animals and be honest with them about what kind of dog you're suited for.

Dogs aren't really the horror story crap shoot you're describing. It certainly doesn't have to be.

 Quote: Mara Jessup

 Quote: Brianah Maloney

 Quote: Mara Jessup

There is a world of difference between being dedicated to a greyhound or basset hound and being dedicated to a GSD, BC or Mal.

Now that said alone i completely disagree with in every way.
That is what i am hearing, from these BC groups who wont let me hang with them because i dont own the breed they do, i could not be as dedicated an owner.
And its making me reaaal sour.
And i get at things until they are DEAD. Then i get at it one more time just to make sure its dead.

So ill post a response to what you just said above.

Tell me WHY you say this first thing???


Wait... are you poking me just to see me growl...?

So you disagree that there is a training and exercise differential between a Malinios and a Basset Hound??

No. I disagree with these exact words layed out this way.

"There is a world of difference between being dedicated to a greyhound or basset hound and being dedicated to a GSD, BC or Mal."

I think you are saying "Theirs a world of difference between being a dedicated owner of this breed compared to that breed.
A person with this or that breed MUST be more or less dedicated because of the breed."

How dedicated you are to your dogs makes you more or less dedicated. The background history of the dogs is most important. How your dogs work in ring helps to show dedication to that one dog.


Again, 99 percent of mals REQUIRE an immensely dedicated owner handler.

But just because you own one doesn't mean you are a dedicated owner.


Goldens normally do not require this dedicated knowledgeable of an owner handler.

But there are very seldom cases of the breeds you mentioned that particular dog itself will require an extremely dedicated knowledgeable owner handler and a severely controlled environment for the rest of his life. And the owner of this one dog is the same as any other dedicated mal GSD ECT owner.

So no. Though i recognize the breed qualities. I do not recognize a dedicated owner until i see a dedicated owner.

 Quote: Tracy Collins

Dogs aren't really the horror story crap shoot you're describing. It certainly doesn't have to be.

No. It doesnt HAVE to be. But sometimes it IS.
That's all it takes to ruin a dogs life, or your life.
Personal experience. I would rather have a person be prepared for hell for the next 10 years +, then not prepared.

NO, i will not shoot somebody down, of make them feel inferior while preparing them though..

"The number of people who are looking for a dog that would put that on hold to spend "the next few years" researching dogs before getting one seems optimistic. It's good advice. I just don't think it's realistic. "

Good, most people don't need a just companion dog anyways.
If they are going to be dedicated, then they wont mind hanging around with dogs and dog people.

Isn't being just a companion what most dogs are? And what most dogs are best suited for? And what most owners are looking for?

I agree with Connie. Your feelings were hurt (probably inadvertently) by somebody that doubted your ability or desire to learn the skills to successfully own a Malinois. Go prove them wrong.

But you're never going to get much support (here) for the notion that there are some breeds of dogs that are not suitable except for the most dedicated and advanced dog owners.

Edit: and I count myself in that group of unsuitable people. I'm in no way prepared or skilled enough to own a mal or a border collie. No reputable breeder of either would sell me one.

 Quote: Brianah Maloney

I feel like people took my posts and ignored some things i have said. And hyped up other things, warping them into something i have never said.

I'm sorry you feel that some people have ignored, hyped up, or warped certain things you have said. I believe all of the people who have responded in this thread are sincerely trying to be helpful and would not in any way be disrespectful of your feelings or deliberately try to twist your words.

 Quote: Brianah Maloney

PEOPLE i have met MANY who believe JUST because THEY have owned a certain breed that NORMALLY requires a more dedicated knowledgeable handler than others, that means they are BETTER HANDLERS than other automatically. THEY have "true" dog experience. When a person who owns a breed that is typically docile, he is automatically lesser of a owner, handler. Less educated, experienced ECT. You know the deal.

THIS IS WRONG? CAN WE ALL AGREE TO THIS?

Just owning as certain breed of dog does not say what type of handler trainer owner you are. It means you own a dog of a breed.

I agree, just because one owns a dog of a breed known for high energy and/or high drive does not automatically make one a better handler. I would look more to a person's accomplishments with their dog, a dog's manners both at home and in public, and the dog's level of happiness and willingness to work for its handler to determine the handler's skill.

 Quote: Brianah Maloney

THIS is what experiences i have had with the girl groups i met with. And online. And people at trials. ECT.

No, they are not talking about protecting the breed.
Sure, to an extent they are.
But LAUGHING, ganging up, giggling.
Acting superior as a handler, owner person, because they simply all own a breed that is typically this or that way compared to the TYPICALLY docile, easy going breed you own. ECT

You agree that these girls (and occasionally a boy or man), and groups are simply "protecting the breed they own" when you are not allowed to chat (or hang when at groups and seminars) with them as equals, because they have a certain breed. And that means they have "dog experience" yet you do not.

If this has been your experience in attending trials, training clubs, etc., then that is very sad. It sounds like a high school clique. But I wouldn't waste my time with these kinds of people. Keep looking. Try to find mentors within the breeds and type of sports you are interested in. Don't give up. And please don't judge all owners of certain breeds based on these few people. I belong to a multi-breed, multi-discipline training club. We welcome newcomers! There must be places like this in your area, too.

Any trainer worth his salt will tell you that we are constantly learning. We are NEVER perfect.

Any trainer worth his salt will tell you that they wish they could go back and apologize to the dogs that came before because mistakes were made.

I have 5 dogs. 3 of which are working line dogs. I have trained in agility, protection, tracking, rally, flyball, nosework, scent discrimination, and 2 of my dogs are certified Therapy Dogs. This makes me more experienced in some areas than others. Does this make me a better owner or trainer than Tracy or Cheri? NO NO NO NO NO NO NO!!!!!!!

I suggest that you look- REALLY LOOK- at the people you are talking about- these "girls"- and determine for yourself if they are worth listening to. If they are demeaning someone or acting superior because they have a certain breed, then in my opinion, they aren't worth the oxygen used to respond to them.

When I was a kid- 12ish- I showed my horse in hunter trials. My horse was a pinto with one blue eye. The other girls in the hunter class made fun of my horse- called her a blind donkey- because she wasn't a highly bred sport horse.

This pissed me off, I cried in the barn while tacking up for the class. But my instructor said that anger won't get me anywhere- it might even screw up my performance. The only way to get back at them was to win the class on my "blind donkey". We took the blue, and those "girls" didn't even place.

The moral of the story is that people will say anything - girls especially can be viscious. You need to figure out whether its worth listening to or not. If they aren't worth listening to, then find a group that is.

Now that we've got the human side of this equation figured out, lets attack the dog side of it.

Dogs are different. Different breeds have varying levels of needs that are required to be met.

My couch potato lab Shyner is much less of an energy investment than one of my Mals. Her requirements to meet her needs are much less than the Mals are. Am I any less "dedicated" to her than I am the Mals? NO She's just an easy keeper.

"Dedication" to me does not equal time or energy investment. Dedication, to me, means willing to do whatever is needed to keep the dog happy, healthy and well trained. ANY owner willing to do whatever is required FOR THE DOG is "dedicated" in my mind.

Some dogs require more time and energy. Some breeds are generally more high maintenance than others. This is a fact, that can not be denied.

Some dogs are happy to go outside to go potty when the owner simply opens the door- Shyner is like that. She'll go out, do her stuff and come back in. The Mals need to be exercised, they need mental stimulation - if I just open the door, they will stand in front of it waiting for me to come out and work with them... more time and energy from me, but my "dedication" level is the same for all my dogs.. I will do WHATEVER they need.

Speaking of which, they need to be worked.

I'll be back later.

 Quote: Brianah Maloney

 Quote: Mara Jessup

 Quote: Brianah Maloney

 Quote: Mara Jessup

There is a world of difference between being dedicated to a greyhound or basset hound and being dedicated to a GSD, BC or Mal.

Now that said alone i completely disagree with in every way.
That is what i am hearing, from these BC groups who wont let me hang with them because i dont own the breed they do, i could not be as dedicated an owner.
And its making me reaaal sour.
And i get at things until they are DEAD. Then i get at it one more time just to make sure its dead.

So ill post a response to what you just said above.

Tell me WHY you say this first thing???


Wait... are you poking me just to see me growl...?

So you disagree that there is a training and exercise differential between a Malinios and a Basset Hound??

No. I disagree with these exact words layed out this way.

"There is a world of difference between being dedicated to a greyhound or basset hound and being dedicated to a GSD, BC or Mal."

I think you are saying "Theirs a world of difference between being a dedicated owner of this breed compared to that breed.
A person with this or that breed MUST be more or less dedicated because of the breed."

How dedicated you are to your dogs makes you more or less dedicated. The background history of the dogs is most important. How your dogs work in ring helps to show dedication to that one dog.


Again, 99 percent of mals REQUIRE an immensely dedicated owner handler.

But just because you own one doesn't mean you are a dedicated owner.


Goldens normally do not require this dedicated knowledgeable of an owner handler.

But there are very seldom cases of the breeds you mentioned that particular dog itself will require an extremely dedicated knowledgeable owner handler and a severely controlled environment for the rest of his life. And the owner of this one dog is the same as any other dedicated mal GSD ECT owner.

So no. Though i recognize the breed qualities. I do not recognize a dedicated owner until i see a dedicated owner.

Now you're taking MY words out of context.

Dedication = how mush time you're able to dedicate to your dog on a daily basis, how much of your life you're is going to be wrapped up in meeting your dog's needs. NOT one person loves/is more committed to their individual dog.

I kinda feel like you came here with a chip on your shoulder and if we don't fully agree with you then we're the enemy.

Of course a person can be 100% committed to their dog what ever the breed. Of course one person isn't a better or worse dog owner simply because of the breed. Of course owning a certain breed doesn't make you an expert. Of course other breeds can have a myriad of issues and be quite high maintenance.

But if you come in ticked off full guns blazing then you're apt to read stuff into our responses that just isn't there. I don't know you from Adam. I have no reason to try and irritate you. And we probably agree about 90%. But we're probably not going to agree on that last 10%. And that's okay and not personal.