The sad thing is that if these people are in business and have that many dogs....there are a lot of people buying their pups. (and their BS) <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

BTW I have seen a lot of golden/GSD crosses that looked those red shepherds from the first link. I wonder how they got them to look like that?

I think her "red" longcoat is a dog with a VERY faded saddle. My friend had one marked like this and if you looked very closely at his back you could see some black. You would not see it if you didn't look closly, her dog was also not a coat either. It could also be a VERY light sable. I don't beleive it is a "new" color. If you look at the second pic of the same dog, you can see black around his face, so I don't think it's a liver.

Any one have any info on k9 breast cancer? My 10 year old is going in for surgery on Monday. The vet says we are catching it early enough where the success rate is very high 90s%

I have an Otis grandson with influnce from Queck on his mothers side......I want to get a little larger dog (75-80 lbs) with a bunch more civil aggression, any recomendations on what I should seek in terms a pedigree for a breeding female.

Your not going to find many people that will defend the white shepherd. Anyone who breeds for color only is asking for trouble. White shepherds and amer shepherds are crap, as simple as that.

Hi Kim,
You sound like you know a lot about breeding White Shepherds, so do tell me what kind of trouble I can expect from breeding my White Shepherds. I happen to like the nature of the White Shepherds; I have no knowledge, or have found any sound proof of any physical defects associated specifically to the White Shepherd. So if you know of any concrete evidence and not just bias opinion please let me know.
Steve

They can't work, that part is obvious. When hell freezes over and they compete in protection sports, and DO WELL, then please let everyone know.

Do you not believe a good working dog is produced through genetics? Do you think it's upbringing alone?

As far as being biased goes, the only people I see talking about how well White GSDs and other show dogs work, own one and usually SELL them. Would that be the biased you're talking about?

The white shepherd can not be a working dog. I have never heard of one that could work in 30 years of breeding dogs. The gene pool is so diluted that more and more physical problems are cropping up. I have known several people that owned these dogs and they all had health problems. I even knew a breeder who had several males and about 5 females. She finally went out of business because she had guarenteed the puppies and had to replace so many of them that she was not making any money. If you can find a breeder who has no problems, than good for you. If the puppy was from a line that was not breeding for whites, then the puppy should be fine. I'm not saying that whites would not make good pets, if you can get a healthy one, but the fact is they can't work. These dogs are mostly from American lines and have been poorly bred. I think the worst thing that can happen to a breed is to become popular. Every one wants to breed them and make money, but very little thought is put in to how the dog will turn out. Weak nerves, health problems and poor temperment are the price that these dogs have to pay. The dog pounds are filled with these unwanted dogs.

Brad,
I have no intension of breeding dogs for protection sports, but just in case you forgot, the German Shepherd (Correct me if I am wrong) was bred for herding, and protecting sheep from wolves, and in a lot of European countries the White Shepherd was preferred.
As for breeding dogs through genetics, if you are breeding to get the perfect attack dog then that is what you will end up with, not a German Shepherd. I will listen when you talk about breeding through genetics to get the perfect herding dog.
Kim,
I don’t know anything about American lines, my dogs lines are European. Their have been no major health problems in either of my dogs lines.
As for weak nerves, check out this site http://www.vdhaonline.org Yes White Shepherds in Nam. And if you check out the White Shepherd sites you will find they have served all over the world in various dangerous capacities.
You will have to elucidate what you mean by poor temperament.
Steve

Steve wrote: "I have no intension of breeding dogs for protection sports, but just in case you forgot, the German Shepherd (Correct me if I am wrong) was bred for herding, and protecting sheep from wolves, and in a lot of European countries the White Shepherd was preferred.
As for breeding dogs through genetics, if you are breeding to get the perfect attack dog then that is what you will end up with, not a German Shepherd. I will listen when you talk about breeding through genetics to get the perfect herding dog."

Ok, hold on, lets get a few things straight.

Lets end this part of the argument ASAP! The German Shepherd was, and always has been, since the founding of the breed, been bred for herding AND PROTECTION! The German HGH program and SchH programs should be ample proof of that. Those are required to breed a GSD. Both contain a handler protection portion in the examination.

And further, Max in order to save the herding breed he loved from fading into oblivion. . .took the instincts and temperament of the herding dog and molded them into. . .the police and military dog. Who's primary function is to BITE THE BAD GUY!!!!

THE SAME INSTINCTS, TEMPERAMENT, AND WORKING ABILITY THAT MAKES A GOOD TENDING GSD, MAKES A GOOD POLICE/MILITARY/CIVILIAN PROTECTION AND SERVICE DOG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

There is no getting around the fact that the German Shepherd as a working breed is a protection and service dog. A biting dog, and it has always been a biting dog. Even back into it's pure "herding" days. . .remember the different style of herding the dog was bred for, we are not talking about border collies here, not shelties, Aussies, or any of those others. The work is different and requires a different, more aggressive animal.

And protecting the sheep from wolves was usually less important than protecting them from thieves. And surely less important than protecting the handler from various evil doers as well. The GSD was not bred as a flock guarding breed like a Kuvasz, but for tending and police work. Very different occupations.

The German Shepherd is a protection breed. Its great that it can do a full range of other useful things, but it's primary function is as a police and military dog. . .one that bites.

Is that pretty clear?

It isn't often clear what exactly that is to people that are not involved in the sport or work, but it is NOT an ATTACK DOG or a VICIOUS DOG. The ability to do the work comes from good temperament, strenght of nerve, and drive/instincts.

Not from vicious, fear biter, attack dog, monster, mythical beast, jaws of terror, Cujo, public opinion of what a biting dog is. That is wrong.

Schutzhund is a protection sport, it is also a requirement for breeding the GSD. . .by the SV. . .you know. . .the organization founded by Max von Stephanitz. . .the organization that determines what the breed IS.

And I don't know of any country that prefered the white GSD. That is a load of crap.

What is not a load of crap is that white is a natural color for the GSD, although a rare one. One that happened when breeding dogs. . .working dogs. . .and was not in itself a defect.

But, breeding for a single color eliminating from your gene pool all the other colors just to maintain the white creates problems. You are no longer selecting dogs for health, working ability, temperament. . .most breeders are selecting dogs for looks.

There are many very healthy white shepherds, maybe even more in the UK because they are removed from the ASS lines, but you have to look at them realistically. They are not working dogs, not herding dogs, they are very good pets and companions. And as is slowly proving itself around the world, they are no longer German Shepherds, but their own breed.

The rare working white GSDs are just that, rare. The majority of the white GSD gene pool no longer carries the necessary traits for work. Either tending or police/military functions. . .