>>Im in canada and I think that the french ring needs to come a long way to find its self again. I think that ASR or PSA would be a better test for me and my dogs. I think that brining something new and fresh would be the way to go. let me know what you people think.

Hi David

I don't think people (generic) should kid themselves about which sport provides for real protection...They are ALL sports and majority of dogs equipment focused. Genetics and civil type training is what prepares your dog for real confrontations IMO. ie., hidden equipment, muzzle work etc...So unless the genetics are there and you supplement the sport of your choice with other training; it is very unlikely that one would be able to rely or guarantee that the dog is going to protect in a real situation.

I would agree with you that much of what was there historically is no longer there. But it's not the programs which are responsible for that but the changes in genetics/breedings. Now Europe is still more flexible w/respect to having dogs with natural aggression compete; but even their historical acceptance of this has changed as more and more see sports as just that-->SPORTS; and prefer to produce (genetically and environmentally) sport type mentalities. With JQP and society as a whole becoming paranoid and on the bandwagon about every dog bite (justified or not); it was bound to change. As well, most competitors are in it for the POINTS. The sport type dog is more likely to get the top points and yes unfortunately also the breedings which means $$$$--winners are marketable....A hard, high fight drive, aggressive type will certainly get the job done but not necessarily achieve the podium pts. Historically, it tended to be the latter type which also proved to be the better producer. Today the majority of breeders breed for the market and the ever changing market trends/demands...and yes that is how breeds lose their true workability. History is littered with these type of examples.

Historically, it was common/typical to see civil, hard type, dominant (decoy) dogs on a FR trial field...the types that nobody but the handler could approach...and many times the handler himself was bit by his own dog in training when conflict arose...how many would tolerate, accept, OR be able to deal with dogs like this today and still be able to achieve what they did in 'yesteryear'??? Not too many.

I remember going to a local club with whom we trained from time to time...and one guy from this club stating that his club didn't really like 'real' dogs and that this was a sport and only sport mentality types should be in the program and allowed to trial and that they don't appreciate dogs that try to dominate the fight with the decoy and that this was supposed to be a game...So you see with these type of attitudes which by the way are in the majority today; it shouldn't be surprising that certain expectations have taken a turn.

Myself, I will always sacrifice a few points in exchange for hardness, courage, and heart. But that's just me.

Just my .02

Sammy you qouted me when I said "A good sch dog could do good in PSA",,,well the key word is good and in my opinion a good sch dog doesnt "crap out" when the decoy puts alot of pressure on it.Like I said I can only base my opinions on the trial I saw BUT the trial I saw was with Joe and Jerry, now I would think that would be the trial to see and get a good idea of what PSA is all about. I saw Joe doing the scoring, I saw dogs that bit with their front teeth, some with one of their front teeth. I saw Jerry run a couple of dogs thru. Did they bite good? Oh yeah! Did he have any control over them? Oh no! Did he stop and put an e-collar on one of them during the trial? Yeah! Did tht make me think PSA is a great sport? No, unfortunately. Putting an e-collar on the dog under those circumstances doesnt even make good training sense. Im sorry but I didnt walk away from this impressed or thinking that anybody I saw there was doing anything remotely "great" for the working dog world.I will admit PSA looks good on paper but didnt transfer over to looking like what I had hoped to see on the field.

Brigia, you must have spoke to the same people that I was talking to and i agree with you 100% as to the state that FR is in canada. Its a game that the handler and the dog aare trying to get the highest points. Part of the proble is that these are people that have full time jobs and train as a hobby. people like me do this for a living and to put food on the table. the Hobbiest think that they know everything and have no formal training and make it very dificult for the people that do it for a living. I know this sounds very errigant but in some casses this is true. I feel every sport has something good to offer when done properly.

Dave

David,
They put an E collar on the dog *during* the trial? If so, I'm assuming that the dog was disquailifed and shown only for practice, right?

At the risk of annoying people...
PSA is all about controling a dog under extreme situations. The first level, pretty much whines out weaknerved dogs, that is it's purpose. I feel that it is true that it is a sport and who really know how much of that stuff transfers - but one would think control is control? I will say that I truly think a FR dog can easily transfer but, schutzhund, I don't know. I think that early imprinting is pretty important.
I'm a green hobby trainer, what do the experts think?
As for the shock collar, some trainers will blow a trial in order to not let the dog get away with stuff. Training first above all.

Vadim,
You've been to multiple trials with 50 to 60 teams competing? And they're getting bigger? That'd make PSA *huge* by even SchH standards - there are plenty of SchH trials with only twelve teams competing, hell, the regionals for most areas don't have 60 teams competing.
That means, with the exception of the USA Nationals, the PSA trials that you've seen were bigger.

Interesting though when I look at the PSA site under trial results this is what I found:
http://www.psak9.org/uploads/trial_results/psa_feb21_22_trial_report_log_2004.htm

The most recent trial listed was for Feb. 21 & 22, 2004.
Total number of entries: 13 entries on Sat. with 2 dog/ handler teams passing. Two dog was shown in two categories. Total number of handlers was nine.
Total number of entries on Sunday: 14 entries with 3 dog/handler teams passing. Two dogs shown in two categories. Total number of handlers was 11. Interesting enough, ten of the dogs showing on Sunday were repeating in the same category that they had failed on Sunday.

To me that would be a very small trial. However, when I spent some time looking at all the trial results, that trial seemed about average . The largest trial that I could find had almost 30 entries, but 10 dogs were being shown in two categories, knocking the number of dogs in the trial down to 20. The same theme of repeating title attempts after failing the day before was apparent. I also note that on two day trials, the second day is 75% made up of dogs re-attempting to pass after failing the day before.

The PSA Nationals had a total of 26 entries with 1 dog in two different categories, and four handlers handling two different dogs. Seven passing scores were achieved.

Maybe the PSA trials out on the West Coast are huge and they're just not posting the results on the offical PSA website?

so, if i wanted to expose a personal protection pup to a club training environment, not with the intent of competing but only for training, which one would be best, psa, knpv, asr, sch or none of the above?

As of right now there is no KNPV in the US.

You would want to find the club with the best possible decoy/helper available in your area.

Luis,
Asking people's opinions about personal protection will give you exactly that - their opinion. And opinions are always always colored by peoples feeling. Add to that the fact that some people may have a financial interest at stake with their replies, and you almost can't get a straight answer.
If you peruse some of the PPD boards, you'll suspect that the people are crazy. Or stupid, or some combination of both.

Get out there yourself and visit clubs and trials. Go to a few different SchH clubs during training nights and attend at least two different trials. Do the same for ASR and PSA training sessions and trials. Sure, it'll take a few months of your time to do all the visits, but at least you'll have seen with your own eyes.
Just seeing the training on websites doesn't cut it. You need to lay your eyes directly on the training. And go with your gut feeling. If they're training dogs in a way that you don't like - don't train with them!
Patience is your friend here, take your time and do your research. A lot of PP trainers talk a good game but can't back it up. Do you and your dog a favor and spend the time before hand so you'll be informed enough not to end up training with fools, becuase there's a lot of them out there.

And this is my *opinion*, but it's based on personal observation - PP training is currently the biggest rip-off going in dog sports at the moment. Since the titles and judging is so varible, it's hard to really tell if they even mean anything. And it seems that a lot of people that just want to bite train, and avoid OB training have migrated to that type of training. The PP sports are developing a following a bad reputation due to this.

Well said Will. Look for something that you feel good about. If you feel that you dont like the training then yoiu souldnt be there. It is different for everybody. Do look for people that use OB as a foundation for all training. Like Will said. In the end you will be happy with the training.

Dave