Can it be effective? Heck yes!!! Have you ever been bitten hard?

With so many people using different definitions of Fight Drive , I no longer find it beneficial to use the term much anymore .

Even two trainers using the same definition of fight drive can have different interpretations of it . It's alot like interpreting a poem or passage from a religious document .

I don't see this to the same degree with some of the other more popular drives (Prey , Defence , etc .) .

I now usually refer to the level of confidence the dog is showing when confronting(could be when trying to drive off or in actually physical combat with a badguy) or about to confront(while searching for )a badguy . Because that's 1 of the biggset things I'm seeing when I see a dog I beleive has fight drive and that's big time confidence showing throughout a whole scenerio that brings out fight drive . It's overly simplistic I know but isn't that one of the things drives were used for in the first place . To make it easier to describe what a dog was showing us and their possible physical or mental state at the time .

Lou and Kevin , are your 2 interpretations of fight drive the same ? If they are different , What are the differences ?

From reading both of the definitions of fight drive you 2 supplied ,it is hard for me to tell if you guys have the same interpretation of it .

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With so many people using different definitions of Fight Drive , I no longer find it beneficial to use the term much anymore .

Jim and to add to that each trainer will say the other is misunderstanding what fight drive is. I'm with you on this one. I have my belief on what it is but I think "fight" drive is one term that won't slow anything down if it becomes part of ancient vocabulary.

I am just digging around in the muck we made of this to throw something new in. Anybody else think this is a character trait and not a "drive"? Think about it.

Hi Jeff...I think it's a character trait...can you explain the difference between a character trait and a drive? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Jeez! This whole post could be assisted on its merry way to internet ether by the doggy equivalent of Merriam Webster! I don't think there is significant difference.

So, my opinion is this:
STARTING FIGHT DRIVE TRAINING...
1) If your dog doesn't have it, you can "train it in". It's also "maturity" dependent.
2) If he does, and you place him in bite situations with opposition...you'll know it. No indecision of the "Should I stay or should I go" variety. He will really want to fight, and will be a bit flustered if he can't.
3) It takes an experienced decoy to enhance it if the dog has it, but it doesn't go away if the decoy simply does regular work. If the decoy AND HANDLER do BAD work, the desire to fight can be suppressed/diminished/repressed...but it doesn't disappear.
4) Some people think their dog has it because it displays aggression, via forward barking, lunging, growling; some people see a quiet dog straining against a tie and think the dog is "locked in prey". At the end of the day... I think it's opposition that shows if your dog has REAL guts...and it's not significant if it's prey, hunt, defense, a combination thereof...or some other word that could be invented some time in the future. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> It's tough (obviously not impossible) from a decoy's perspective, to make a dog that REALLY wants to fight back down...and there's a higher element of uncertainty (from a decoy's point of view) regarding whether the dog will stay on "target". When ground fighting with a good dog the decoy should be very aware that his face is probably fair game.

From a training point of view, I think it's a fabulous asset if the owner of a good dog has a(n) experienced decoy(s) that can take the dog along, so as to show it that fighting is what the owner wants the dog to do, when the owner asks the dog to go bite.

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Lou and Kevin , are your 2 interpretations of fight drive the same ? If they are different , What are the differences ?

If Kevin's definition is limited to what's on his website, we're not very close together. Perhaps a few lines from my stakeout test regarding what I look for in a dog that has pronounced fight drive . . . "A strong dog will do one of two things. He can bark at me or he can just stand his ground and look at me.

"A dog that is full of fight drive (a willingness to accept a challenge) who has had not training of any kind will say, (to himself of course) "What is this guy about? He's acting kinda weird so I better keep my eye on him." I am not yet close enough to be any kind of a threat so he is not required to try and chase me away.

"At some point, if the dog has passed all the intermediate distances, I get to within inches of the dog. I try to get as big as I can, standing up straight and tall and extending my arms over my head. I stare straight into the dog's eyes, trying to dominate him as much as I can. I know some will say it's silly but I try to be as much of an animal as I can. I try to use my entire body to communicate dominance.

"A dog that has little or no training but is full of fight drive may show up radically different, If he is sitting calmly but watching me intently, that's OK. I have given him some body language that says that I may be a threat, but that's all there is so far, a threat and I'm too far away from him to hurt him at this point. As long as he hasn't shown any sign of weakness as mentioned above he is getting a passing grade. I have been within inches of some dogs that maintained good eye contact and still sat quietly even though I was towering over them.

"I am careful not to give the dog any types of cues that remind him of training. I avoid moving rapidly to avoid bringing up prey drive. I do not present an arm as if I was wearing a sleeve. I do not present my arm as if holding a stick.

"A fight drive dog may also be barking and lunging at me at this point. If he is not; if he is still sitting quietly, intent on me, I will pick up the stick and strike him sharply on his leg or shoulder. I have now gone from being merely a threat, to being an attacker. He should then bark and lunge at me, trying to bite me.

"He will maintain hard eye contact throughout our contact.

"At this time I will make soothing noises, and approach the dog in a friendly manner. A defensive dog will remember how I acted before and will soon start to bark and lunge at me. I will approach, still being friendly and even may kneel down, just outside his reach to try to calm him down. I may use his name to help calm him down. A dog that still regards me as a threat, fails this test.

"A dog that at first barks and lunges but can be calmed down may be either a prey or fight drive dog. Usually the prey dogs will bark at first and then can be calmed down.

"A high fight drive dog may remember our last contact but will very quickly calm down, as I approach.

"If they will let me, I will pet the dog. Most defensive dogs will not let me pet them because they remember me as a threat a few moments ago. Many prey drive dogs will let me pet them. Almost all fight drive dogs will calm down immediately and let me pet them. With some, it takes a few seconds."

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1) If your dog doesn't have it, you can "train it in".

The dog has to have the genetics for FD, so if there are NO genetics, then you can not train FD into a dog.

I meant to write "can't" train it in...apologies for the typo.

I don't think you can train a character trait into a dog. I also think that while we are having this discussion, a lot of new people are going to try and "train" fight drive into their dogs. I always try and remember that people tend to see what they want to....especially nowdays. I have seen a lot of dogs that their owners thought had this fight drive. I used to tell them otherwise, but now I just leave them alone. The reality of this time is that if they have a dog that likes to bite they should be happy. Soooo many lamo dogs out of some big Schutzhund podium dog. It is so sad.

I don't think I could explain the difference <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> I never really thought about this, and then Ed PM'd me and I started thinking about what I saw, and on and on. I also blame Ed for keeping me up a few nights in a row. Unfortunately, I sometimes have to argue with someone to make me get what I am saying, let alone what they are saying. I am bad at verbalizing for sure.

I started thinking about drives and thresholds and all of that stupid crap and then remembered how hard it was to have the dogs not be so stinkin serious. It's been a while, but I don't remember them being all that playful as babies. Maybe the occasional dash around. So that is why I have mucked up the water again.