In what major events is the GSD a minority and how important are those events to the working GSD culture?

Robert, he might have meant results in trials like 2005 FCI not total numbers. In the top 20 only 4 GSD's, 15 Malinois and a Giant Schnauzer. Look at the full results Mal's dominated the top 50. It's late but I think there were 30 Mal's in the top 50 about 60% and 15 GSD's roughly 30%.

I think GSD made up 54% and Mals were around 43% of the total dogs. http://www.hondensport.com/CWH/WK2005/uitslagWK.htm

Guys, we're drifting off the topic.

One poster has brought up so many topics and tangents that the initial focus of our topic, the SDA, is being lost here. And I'm hoping that wasn't the poster's intention, to change the topic away from the SDA.
Because if you look at it with any scrutiny, the SDA just doesn't look too good.

And while I can see that some pro-SDA posters would like to confuse the issue with Mal vs. GSD stuff, let's focus on the point at hand.

 Quote:

Guys, we're drifting off the topic.

One poster has brought up so many topics and tangents that the initial focus of our topic, the SDA, is being lost here. And I'm hoping that wasn't the poster's intention, to change the topic away from the SDA.
Because if you look at it with any scrutiny, the SDA just doesn't look too good.

And while I can see that some pro-SDA posters would like to confuse the issue with Mal vs. GSD stuff, let's focus on the point at hand.

I won't even begin on you and off topic posts - you are a moderator on this forum - therefore its useless for me to return any smart ass comments you may make - plus it would make me drop to a level I wish to not goto (and you will just mod me or ban me) - as for the SDA comments - I am still waiting on your answers to the solutions because you stated that you know what the problems and solutions are to dog sports. Other members of this board have taken this topic to various other topics - do you wish that we make a topic for every topic we wish to discuss?

I have had SEVERAL PM's regarding support for UKC and SDA - I applaud those and I am only here to answer questions and keep an open mind - as I said before, I am not big into competing myself (just can't stand the politics and the people involved in it) - but I have been messing around with some of this year and I have always supported all dog sports and have helped people obtain their titles in their sports of choice..

I don't really see how we have veered off topic - afterall it began with a SDA bashing - and now that someone has came to the board with an open mind and a little knowledge - it appears to be a problem.

 Quote:

In what major events is the GSD a minority and how important are those events to the working GSD culture?

Tracy is right - The FCI world championships was one of the events I was mentioning -

If you want to know a couple more - lets take Germany's Championships into effect with the DHV-DM (Deutsche Meisterschaft) - (the US) has sent a Doberman over there the past couple years and he has done fairly well (goog job Butch) - but I will post you a couple links and you can see the championship qualifier in Germany (look how many Mals and GSDs are competing in that) and there are several other working breeds as well - and I will post the actual championship link so you can see the standings as well - I will also post 2004's and 2005's standings - its pretty grim... The doberman (Agir) was on the promotional poster in Germany this year (3 dogs were featured, a GSD and a MAL) and he couldn't compete at the FCI because of the crop/dock bans..

http://216.239.37.104/translate_c?hl=en&...hl%3Den%26lr%3D

Of the top 20 dogs there, a GSD took 8th & 18th and an Airdale took 14th & 20th - the rest were Mals - and look at the rest of their standings..

Then the actual Championships
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl...hl%3Den%26lr%3D

Heres the top 10 for ya with no Shepherds in it
TopTen



Theo Sporrer Butch v. D bad neighbourhood 99 97 100 ,296 1 (Malinois)
Sabine Boesinger Billi v. Falkenstock 99 93 97 289 2 (Malinois)
V.d. witch is called Robert Parak Buzz 100 92 96 288 3 (Malinois)
Andreas's call Immo v. Satansberg 98 95 95 288 4 (Malinois)
Michael one-hard Aika of the sun against 99 95 93 287 5 (Malinois)
Guenter Hytra uranium air haven Hanover 100 92 94 286 6 (Malinois)
Petra Sporrer Greck of the Teutones 97 94 94 285 7 (Malinois)
Michael fount living Pox v. Flanzbate 99 91 94 284 8 (Malinois)
Mirko Spiess Zeus v. Hatzbachtal 98 88 94 280 9 (Riesenschnautzer)
Manuela Scherer Metzler Arnold v. black basilisk 98 89 93 280 10 (Malinois)

And you can also look for a shepherd and other breeds in the rest of the top 50 - merely saying - the malinois group must have been a hidden away cell because there appears to be a ton of malinois handlers - so either people are leaving breeds to work malinois - or we had an increase in people joining dog sports?

I've heard of more as well - but am too lazy to go search the results of other championships from across the pond...

Also Will - I would hope you would post like a moderator if you try to enforce certain rules - its only the right thing to do <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Also - the people who brought the mal vs gsd weren't pro-sda people, they were pro-ring people and pro malinois people - I thought this was a "Schutzhund" and "German Shepherd" board - or at least thats what I think of when I hear the name "Leerburg" - or have I been mistaken as well?

I may seem to play devils advocate alot - but I can't stand people who are to ignorant to see other options and the politics peopple play that go along with dogs... But being as I work with computers - I am forced to fullfill my long nights at work - amusing myself with forums and the people they attract (a pretty good hipocriticle statement i know <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> )... But what started this arguement was the bashing of one sport organization and then the realization of other events that are plaquing the dog world today - people can choose to keep their eyes closed as long as they can - but someday (if not already) its going to bite us all in the ass...

So with that - please Jeff and Will - explain to me how the Malinois isn't taking over the dog world? What the solutions to dog sports are? What the problems to dog sports are? Why more people are turning away from the off breeds and the GSD?

The internet is full of opinions - I state mine and you state yours, but when you act like you know everything, then I just expect some answers to back your claims when us newbies ask you? Afterall - isn't that only fair?

As for all my posts on this forum in the past couple days - I have answered all questions thrown my way - I hade behind no computer screen - as for the people who know me around the country, I will speak to you in person as I would with a keyboard and I don't have a problem with speaking my mind and behing honest... Isn't it time you start answering your posts with some valid statements vs verbal assaults.... You guys talk *MOD EDIT* on my friends website (FullforceK9) because he is training dogs and he does stuff with his dogs, you talk
*Mod Edit*
on SDA and the people they attract because they are doing things with their dogs and they are bringing new people - If you think about it, you made a comment about how they had 50 or their last 84 entries were FO's - the organization is new, people have only been trialing for a year now - and they have had 7 or 8 trials since racking up those same numbers or near - when you put that in perspective - take SchH trials, how large are they? and what if they were bringing 50 BH's - people have to get the entry title to proceede - and if you did your research you would have realized that either way you look at it - 50 FO's is either bringing new people or they are setting up to get P1's at the next trial. So what do the great people of the dog world have to do to win your opinion? Start a dog business with a corporation that uses its name based off one of our greatest SchH handlers in the country <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> -- so please start answering questions you create instead of throwing smart ass remarks and online comments.

Mod edit for language
Will Rambeau
Moderator

Sorry Jesse,
It's not hard to see why you attempt to steer the conversation away from the main topic. The SDA is a joke among serious dog trainers and lucky for ya'll that your target audience is beginners that won't know any better - or the lazy that want an easy title that they won't have to do much training to get.. And the UKC shows just how amateurish it is when it participated in this venture.

And when the SDA makes false claims ( and yes...they're false, which is why I point out the BS of SDA ) that they're closing the gap between SchH and Police work, I'm going to be vocal in pointing out the BS.



And as far as my answering your questions, I asked you several and you made no attempt to answer them, so I don't really see this as an exchange of ideas here. I've written volumes about high level training on this forum, feel free to review the old posts, I don't feel a strong need to rehash them here for you.
You've just came to the board to defend the SDA, all well and good - but it doesn't change for one second the fact that the SDA is primarily a couple of backyard trainers with no accomplishments between them copying a sport but taking the difficult portions of it out and then passing it off as something new.

And ya know....it's hard to have an "open mind" when you can see something is BS. If you feel the need to brag that some people are PM'ing you and you want to call them "open-minded" great.....congratulations, you can fool the inexperienced.

And I love your quote:
"and now that someone has came to the board with an open mind and a little knowledge - it appears to be a problem."

Dude...you need to get over yourself, please. That "open mind" saying is going to get old. To you, an "open mind" means "someone that falls for the SDA BS" . Sorry, most of us know better.
And a little knowledge......I'll hold my comments of what I see about the helper work done to myself , but I think you have the "little" part accurate.

"Isn't it time you start answering your posts with some valid statements vs verbal assaults"


Jesse,
My entire point is that several of the statements/ claims made on the SDA website are just simply *false*.
I'm sorry that you take that as a "verbal assault", but to most people, pointing out lies is a "valid statement"

Will,

I didn't steer the topic away from anything - I answered all SDA questions and gave my opinions on the organization (even bad ones) - how is that steering away. You did make verbal assaults in 1 or 2 line statements (I mod other forums).

Anyways - you continue to mention how horrible SDA is - the obedience is identical to SchH - but doesn't use all the dumbell exercises (they add some practicle stuff that an every day dog should have) because they are geared for people who have everyday dogs (not just keeping a dog in a crate) but the funny thing is, people still have problems controlling their dog in the practicle scenarios when it only consists of loading a dog in a vehicle and walking through a gate. The 2 and 3's have the flat retrieve (to test retrieve drive) and some agility stuff (aspects of breedability). And the routines for the 2 and 3 are IDENTICAL to schH pretty much with a few things added in - they don't carried away with off the wall distractions or any distractions and you know what you can train for.

If you have any other questions regarding SDA then I will answer them - as for all the other statements and facts I have provided - they were directed questions and I answered them... There are a group of dog trainers in the country who are talking about trying to get a meeting with SDA - to even change some of the titles to not make them so SchH - but we will see how that goes. Afterall for the last time I will say this - I am a person who trains dogs and has some knowledge of their organization - if you don't have knowledge of their organization then the educational thing

*EDIT MOD*
Jesse,
this is the third language edit that I've done for you, and I've already sent you a PM about it. If you're trying for a ban, you're on the right path. Stop it *now*

Will Rambeau
Moderator

 Quote:

Sorry Jesse,
It's not hard to see why you attempt to steer the conversation away from the main topic. The SDA is a joke among serious dog trainers and lucky for ya'll that your target audience is beginners that won't know any better - or the lazy that want an easy title that they won't have to do much training to get.. And the UKC shows just how amateurish it is when it participated in this venture.

And when the SDA makes false claims ( and yes...they're false, which is why I point out the BS of SDA ) that they're closing the gap between SchH and Police work, I'm going to be vocal in pointing out the BS.



And as far as my answering your questions, I asked you several and you made no attempt to answer them, so I don't really see this as an exchange of ideas here. I've written volumes about high level training on this forum, feel free to review the old posts, I don't feel a strong need to rehash them here for you.
You've just came to the board to defend the SDA, all well and good - but it doesn't change for one second the fact that the SDA is primarily a couple of backyard trainers with no accomplishments between them copying a sport but taking the difficult portions of it out and then passing it off as something new.

And ya know....it's hard to have an "open mind" when you can see something is BS. If you feel the need to brag that some people are PM'ing you and you want to call them "open-minded" great.....congratulations, you can fool the inexperienced.

And I love your quote:
"and now that someone has came to the board with an open mind and a little knowledge - it appears to be a problem."

Dude...you need to get over yourself, please. That "open mind" saying is going to get old. To you, an "open mind" means "someone that falls for the SDA BS" . Sorry, most of us know better.
And a little knowledge......I'll hold my comments of what I see about the helper work done to myself , but I think you have the "little" part accurate.

YOu say they are a joke amongst dog trainers - I see some pretty well respected dog trainers participating in these events and obviously you have no idea what you are talking about becuase you have to make an entry level title to get people in the door - then make the titles get harder as they increase in numbers - so with that, I guess you would say the BH is an extremly hard title to obtain - a rule of thumb on this would be look at PSA - they tried to make their entry level title too hard - and it made it difficult to pull in anyone that wasn't serious dog trainers..

You also make a claim about their claim to bridge the gap between police and Sch - they didn't make any false claims - the P2 nd P3 titles are for the SchH trainers - Jack has his fair share of K9 handlers working with him and they are helping out with the PD1 and PD2 - which the PD1 is suppose to be used as a police evaluation and the PD2 will be able to be used by most departments as a means of certification for apprehension - also they have people on hand that are highly regarded in FEMA doing the SAR program and several K9 handlers from various police agencies that have participated in several of our nations cert programs that see flaws in their programs.. So once again - don't post rude comments on something you have no knowledge of - just merely ask a question...

You make a comment about the helper work - ok, there are going to be good helpers and bad helpers in all organizations so that comment is thrown out the window - also they aren't back yard trainers - Jack ran the 99' north american and has trained several dogs to SchH'3 and being as he is just a backyard trainer he knows an aweful lot of the top SchH competitors...

Also I have answered every question I have seen regarding SDA - you accuse me of changing topics because I answer questions other people throw at me - then so be it...

You also seem to can't get over my "open minded" approach to life - I guess when people can't get on that same approach then they get too wrapped up in the BS politics the dog world brings - I don't need to get over myself - I will do just fine and don't need to worry about what others will think - you seem to need to take a look at your own statements about "getting over yourself" - you make abbusive comments towards people and organizations (how professional is that) and you also rip on the "inexperienced" people that chat here because they are too easily fooled - so I guess we are all "inexperienced" because we don't have the same ideas as you and your expertise right? Every post you make is no wonder why people are affraid to post here or even want to post here - its mods like you that need modded!!!