I luuuuuvvvvvv these threads too! LOL

Roni: That is a great idea for training in place commands such as sit, down and stand. How would you teach the dog that he has to stay on his mat to perform the exercise?

I have the Tom Rose competition heeling video and they show how to train positions using an elevated tree stump, but I do not like his method (dragging the dog onto the stump). I would like to use a mat on the floor and motivational methods. Could this be marker trained? If so, any ideas?

 Quote: alyssa myracle

I can think of several reasons why keeping the marker pure is critical.

First and foremost, when you don't keep it pure, it reduces the liklihood of the dog offering behaviors. Its almost as though you are bringing the reward to him, rather than him performing for the reward.

Second, how do you go about introducing an actual cue or command for the behavior?

Third, does the dog really understand which behavior was being marked? Because he wasn't actively engaged in a training mindset at the moment the mark came, did he understand which behavior was being "captured"? Was the dog aware of all the potential behaviors that had been "offered" and which one was correct?

I disagree with this, respectfully. The whole point of marker training is to GET THE DOG TO OFFER BEHAVIORS. Capturing behaviors as they happen, even if you are working on something else are a very good way to get behaviors that you can't get any other way. The more you click and reward, the more likely your dog is to offer new things.

Suppose I'm working on STAND, and I've planned on working on STAND. Maybe my dog sneezes or puts one paw up and rubs his face. I'm going to click that, because I like capturing behaviors like this. The whole point for me using marker training is to teach my dog that he has a partnership in this, and that I want him to try things... think outside the box. If you are good at marking and rewarding and your dog understands the system all of the superstitious behaviors they try at first (like offering a down or whatever they think is most likely to get them the mark) will fade. Most likely when dogs do this it's because we've trained them that this will pay.

Of course dogs don't understand behaviors (any behaviors) the first couple times you mark them. Using the clicker/marker to capture behaviors makes dogs more interactive and aware of their own behavior. Once they become fluent with marker training they'll connect the dots quicker and quicker.

I'm training my horse and by parrot with the clicker. Basically everything I've taught so far has been by capturing offered behaviors. If they offer something superstitiously, I don't click. The learn to understand what you want, because if you've done your preliminary work right the dog will try what got him clicked last time. If you are not looking for that behavior you don't click.

this is really hard to explain in a post. I'm going to go back to the book The Thinking Dog... the author goes into great detail talking about this.

Marker training encourages a thinking dog...I don't want a dog that only thinks about training during a structured session. I want a dog who's ready to "train" all the time.

I shape the behavior to go to the place, then add word, then combine with another behavior (ex sit). If the dog gets off the board, it's not a problem, as I say no, place. There is no force. THIS IS A REALLY IMPORTANT CONCEPT HERE!!!!!!!
Anytime you physically place a dog, or pull on the leash, the dog's brain stops working. You miss the opportunity to allow the dog to fully process what is happening. WE WANT AN ACTIVE DOG, OFFERING BEHAVIORS!!!!!!! When the dog is in this "state of mind", opportunities are endless, it's up to you to measure up to the callenge!
Happy Training!
Roni

Yes! THIS is what I wanted! I don't have to stick to the plan -- if Lucy is learning to down and she touches my hand with her muzzle I can click and reward for THAT! I don't have to make it a job that she has to work on, I can capture it randomly and eventually she will get it. THEN when she is enthusiastically stuffing her face against my hand (hopefully), I can add a command. Is this the concept? I know I am talking just about Lucy, but it could work for anyone and any dog? (I did order the The Thinking Dog, but screwed up the shipping so it will take longer...sigh).

I can't wait to get the book! And, Cindy, that is a great explanation. If I am flawed in my interpretation, it isn't your delivery, its my processing.

Roni, great simple direction. Thanks for the explanation. I haven't been breaking it down in the right order. (I know this isn't my thread, but I am so new to this style of training I am floundering in the dark! Lucy on the other hand, is so willing to learn, I don't want to disappoint her!)

Jo, this is correct. And this isn't any one person's thread.. it's for all of us to learn and exchange ideas.

I'm just getting ready to leave for training but I rethought what Alyssa was saying while I was getting organized.

I think Alyssa made an important point that I missed at first. Sorry Alyssa!

In the Thinking Dog book, the author talks about 'dead man behaviors'. You don't reward those with a click/treat. in other words, if a dead man can do it, it's not something that you mark. lol

example, your dog is laying there asleep on his bed....don't click and treat that. Click and reward action, offering behaviors, etc..if you dog walks to his bed, click and treat. If your dog lays down on his bed, click and treat that. If your dog offers you eye contact from his bed, click and treat..... You get the idea.

off to training.... good thread.

I have a new one. I have been working on "Leave it" with loki, just for fun.

In the past if he was about to grab something he isn't supposed to I would just say "EEHH" which is our less serious form of "No" and we was always compliant with that.

Leave it was the first thing I taught him using the clicker and we started by playing the food shell game. We are now at the point where I can put the treat on his paw and he will "leave it"

The problem is now when I feed him he takes one bite then sits and looks at me for direction. I have to say OK and he will take another bite, sit back and look at me.

This has happened for the last three or four nights.
and goes on until he has finished his food. If I walk away he follows while throwing sits at me.

I think he is just trying to please me by doing what I taught him, but I didn't mean for him to leave everything without my permission!!

Do you indicate to him when training is over?

When a training session is over, I tell my dogs "all done" then put all training treats, toys etc. away. They catch on pretty quick. Maybe for your guy work on the "all done" then when you put him in his crate to eat tell him all done, put his food down and walk away. May take a few days.

It's funny how some dogs take their jobs very seriously. LOL

Great idea Deb, I always feed dogs in crates. Stops lots and lots of potential problems, and certainly increases the "want to go in" of a dog.
Happy Training,
Roni