Ideally, we should be breeding ALL dogs for that trait.

That used to be the goal.

The breed standards have become to emphasized on one or two traits (appearance, a specific drive) and not focused enough on others (biddability, work ethic).

The goal should be a well-balanced dog who works consistantly, freely and happily, with enough stamina and natural skill to complete the tasks with minimal training and guidance.

Yes, a prey driven dog is easy to train.
Wave a ball and a high prey drive dog will turn itself inside out for it.

I do NOT believe that dogs have in inexhaustable prey drive, despite what some will argue (that "prey stamina" can be built... yes, but only to an extent).
There must be something else backing that prey drive, to keep the dog working once the prey has begun to wane.

Prey drive isn't bad.
It just isn't as earth-shatteringly important as I see emphasized.

I was told that back in the day they used to incorporate the Palisade Jump in Schutzhund. I'm thinking it was originally there for a practical purpose.

Is there not some way that people can petition the Schutzhund Organizations to "up the ante" on really testing the working dog rather than just watering the exercizes down? Just a thought.

My personal opinion is the best way to fight the system, so to speak, is from within.

Be active in the sport. Train, trial and title your dogs.
My husband quit French Ring entirely because of his dissatisfaction with the direction things were going.
He retreated into Personal Protection, as a venue to train the sort of traits he enjoyed in his dogs.

What did he accomplish?
He had no way to prove the worth of his dogs, other than personal testimony or direct demonstration. And nothing about French Ring changed.

In fact, it only got worse, because the voices for change, just left the organization. There was no chorus of "This isn't right" to help get things back on course. The dissenters quit, leaving only the complacent or the actively satisfied with the status quo.

There is already a push in Europe to get things back to basics, again.
Hence the change of the very NAME of the sport overseas:
Schutzhund has been changed to VPG (in German- Vielseitigkeitspruefung für Gebrauchshunde) which roughly translates into "versatility test for working dogs".

Emphasis on TEST and WORKING DOGS.

USA just provided new guidance to judges regarding certain aspects of judging in the Obedience phase.
For example, they clarified that it is neither necessary nor natural for a dog to heel without breaking eye contact with the owner.

In the past, that exaggerated eye contact was interpreted as being "attentiveness".
The dog's overall demenour, responsiveness and heeling quality is the determining factor in how attentive it is, NOT the amount of exaggerated eye contact.

NOW, it is still up to the judge. It's all about what he likes to see in a dog, ultimately, that determines who gets the high points, who gets the V rating, etc.
He cannot FAIL a dog based on lack of eye contact in the heeling, but he isn't required to score the dog high, either.

So, I think it will take time, as the "rules" are "clarified", and older judges who like things flashy retired, leaving it to the new generation, who hopefully will place the emphasis on the relationship between dog and handler, the dog's willingness and seriousness, and the visability of a dog who truly wants to work.

It takes time, and effort.

And you cannot change it, unless you are part of it to begin with.

 Quote: alyssa myracle

When Schutzhund and French Ring became "sports", for competition, rather than a format to judge a dog's suitability for work and breeding, well... it all went to hell.

Schutzhund, French Ring, etc used to be a MEANS to an end.
The means by which you judged a dog's workability, temperment, charector and physical ability.

Instead, they have now BECOME the end.

Now that it's about the sport, and not the dog, we have a need for the dog to be the flashiest, for points.
Instead of judging a dog's willingness to work, it's desire to be useful, we judge the dog's flashiness.

In some dogs, they may be the same thing- in some dogs, they aren't the same thing. Some dogs are sprinters, some dogs are cross country. Does that make sense?

Since flashiness for points is all the rage, we have to find a way to make dogs "flashy".

PREY DRIVE!!! Lets breed dogs with tons and tons of it.

Then we get the very flashy, pretty Obedience on the field.
But did we really get a better dog? IMO, no.
Just a different one.

My dog, just like Jenni's, isn't flashy.
What she IS is real.
She does the OB, not for a ball or a tug, but because she derives pleasure from pleasing me.

Yes, I have used a ball and a tug to train things, motivators to help mitigate frustration in the learning process.
Once she understands a command, the reward really goes out the window. Verbal praise is sufficient, because she's a WORKING dog. WORKING is it's own reward.

I have posited the same beliefs elsewhere, and been laughed at.
I have also had the same discussions with people who got in on the ground floor of Schutzhund and French Ring in America, who agree with me.

*shrug*
I think I'm right.
They think they're right.

Ultimately, only time will tell.

Nice post Alyssa!

Though I do disagree in principle on some aspects. Such as the comparison of SchH vs French Ringsport. Totally different means to an end. Yes they were both begun under the pretense of testing for breeding suitability. Over the 100+ years both disciples have been around Ringsport in general IMHO has stayed more closer to its roots meaning being more about the dog than being about the points.

My example is looking at a 300 point SchH3 dog once you've seen one high scoring SchH routine IMHO you've seen them all. (ducks) YMMV. But at the last Regional SchH championship I attended. I actually counted the helpers footsteps for all the 3 dogs and they were down to inches to being the exact same. Choreographed robotic dogs where the high scorers. To give credit where credit is due. Obviously the high scoring teams are amazing trainers and handlers, but at that point the dog is just a pawn in the game.

We are hard pressed to see a perfect score in French Ring 3 though. Through no fault of the dog, trainer and handler. There is so many variables involved from speed and presence of the decoy, weather, handler, state of the dog etc etc. The work and routines from trial to trial vary quite a bit. It is very hard to train and prepare a Ring dog to be ready for everything a Judge and Decoy may throw at it for a trial especially Ring 2-3. The food on the field is never in the same place as well as the jumps, the decoys are always changing up the game and every dogs entry for even the same exercise is always changing.

So all we can do to prepare a Ring dog is like preparing it for war. Prey drive is a good thing but it still has to be with a clear head. Generally speaking it is not all about prey drive. There is lots of exercises that require the dog to think on its own without input of the handler. The search and basket put a lot of physical and mental stress on a dog to do it well.

For example check out Ulko Des Guerriers-du Crepuscule a FR3 GSD currently competing at the top of the FR game. This dog moves from one exercise to the other in and out of different drives with ease with a clear head. He is a spectacular bred dog with good training. I understand that his pedigree is partly show lines and herding lines as well. I like the 2nd bite for good measure @ 2:46 in this video of the object guard. I don't see flash here just a lot of dog. http://www.dailymotion.com/relevance/search/ulko+ring/video/x8yo13_gr1-1er-selectif-rogeville-2009-ulk_sport

This is an interesting thread for a lot of reasons. I have been trying to organize my thoughts, so, here it goes.

First of all, and what the initial post was about, if your dog’s head is shaking and it is growling during bite work, who cares? I have seen many dogs do this and I do not think that your dog will lose points because of it in a Schutzhund trial. At the WUSV, in Kentucky this past fall, many dogs did that and were not docked points. Your dog will, however, lose points if it is out of control. This is where the idea of a “full, calm grip” comes in. It is about the dog being under control. The growling and head shaking do not mean that the dog is out of control (but, could mean that) and an experienced handler or trainer knows the difference. Furthermore, carrying the sleeve, also, is meaningless. A dog is not tested on this, nor does it receive points for it in a trial. It is a training tool utilized, especially with younger dogs that are first learning bitework, in order to maintain control of the dog. It teaches the dog to think while doing bitework. It teaches the dog that it can bite something, grip it, and it does not have to be out of control in the process. It is nothing more than that if the dog is being trained correctly.
Someone also mentioned a dog being “dirty”. What this means, as I see it, is the dog nipping or biting at the helper, sleeve, or “bad guy” while it is supposed to be guarding (the bark and hold). While this may be appealing to some, it again, really, only shows a lack of control on the part of the dog. A response to this from some might be that I am talking about Schutzhund here. Well, it holds true in real life situations also. Let’s say you have a PPD and someone is threatening you and the dog corners it, or, completely stops the person’s advances. You have a big legal liability on your hands if the dog goes in and bites after the person stops, especially if it does so repeatedly like a “dirty” dog does. The same holds true for a police dog. When the perpetrator stops, so too should the police dog. If not, major lawsuit. Just like a loaded gun, a dog can be a weapon. A protection trained dog is viewed as such by the courts.
While I agree that Schutzhund is probably more of a sport now, its focus is on maintaining control of the dog. Look at the bitework, there is more obedience in that phase than there is actual biting.
While we are on the subject of Schutzhund being more of a sport, and highly point oriented, than a test, I think that only holds true for those who want to compete at the highest levels. Many are in it only as a hobby so that they can do something fun with their dog(s). It is no different than the person that does dock diving, agility, PSA, AKC Obedience, flyball, etc. If you are going to knock Schutzhund because it has evolved in to a sport then you should knock the others as well. While you’re at it, I hope that you hate what basketball has become also. I’m a former hockey player, so, I hate basketball anyway, but, basketball was invented by Dr. Naismith as a way to keep his football players in shape during the offseason. Poor Dr. Naismith must be turning in his grave because they started to keep score. The horror of it all!!!
As for it being a test, I still think that this holds true more so than you think. Look at the majority of breeders. They send their dogs off to be titled by someone or buy one that is already titled. They only want the dog to pass “the test” so that they can prove that the dog is breed worthy. I am not only talking about show line breeders, but, also an abundance of, so called working dog breeders. None of these people really care what the dog’s scores are. They just want the title. Whether or not you feel that a Schutzhund, or other sport title, is a valid breedworthyness (I don’t think that is a word) test is up to the individual.
The other point that I will make about those who decry Schutzhund is that I have yet to meet a person that has actually taken the time to title a dog that thinks that it is ridiculous. I have met people that have titled a dog, or dogs, that no longer train and compete because they do not have the drive, desire, time, or physical ability to do so. Maybe they even don’t like the direction Schuthund has gone, but, I never hear any of these people bad mouthing those who do train and compete. It isn’t that tough to put a Schutzhund 1 title on a dog. Most GSD’s can do it (not American lines). The dogs aren’t the issue. The issue lies with the human. It takes dedication, time and effort to put a title on a dog. Tracking every day, sometimes three times a day can suck, but, the results, regardless of points, are usually quite rewarding. To me it is rewarding spending time doing anything with my dogs. When you don’t want to put in the effort it becomes very easy to speak negatively about any activity.
If you have a better solution for testing the dogs please bring it forth. Most of what is heard from people that do not train and compete is complaints, but, offer no solutions. (Alyssa, I am not talking about you here. You seem to want to make things better and I agree with you.)
I know very few of the people in this thread, but, my guess is that there is only one person (you know who you are) in this thread that has actually taken the time to devise other tests, games, or adventures, in order to challenge her dogs’ mental and physical capabilities. If there are others I applaud you also. Write them down and disseminate them so that others can learn from you. I like what the AWDF has done with their titles. They have gone back to an older style of Schutzhund where parts of phases that were removed have been put back in. With AWDF you must go back to the beginning and start over with the titles. The club that I helped start here in Illinois this past year is also looking at training for and holding SVV/ZVV style competitions that are a little more encompassing and demanding of the dog. No routines in obedience here either. There are certain aspects that they must complete, but, not patterns in heeling, downs, etc. All routines are at the whim of the judge. This too, isn’t perfect, but, should be a better test for the dogs.
I think that the other direction that I have seen in this post is that some of you don’t like the way a lot of GSD’s are nowadays. If this is so, then go find the type of dog that you like. No one is forcing you to buy a dog out of, as it was put, highly prey driven dogs. For some reason some of you would like to believe that there were not many differences in GSD’s in “the old days”. You’re wrong. There have always been differences in GSD’s. The dog was never “one size fits all”. That is what makes them so popular, and more importantly, so versatile. The GSD is a breed of dog that may not be the best at any one thing, but, is, hopefully, great at almost everything. That is what makes a GSD the “best” dog in my book.
Go find the type of dog that suits you and be happy that others have been able to do so also.
Great thread!

Hey Jenni it says your Mailbox is full....

First of all, and what the initial post was about, if your dog’s head is shaking and it is growling during bite work, who cares? I have seen many dogs do this and I do not think that your dog will lose points because of it in a Schutzhund trial. At the WUSV, in Kentucky this past fall, many dogs did that and were not docked points. Your dog will, however, lose points if it is out of control. This is where the idea of a “full, calm grip” comes in. It is about the dog being under control.

The growling and head shaking do not mean that the dog is out of control (but, could mean that) and an experienced handler or trainer knows the difference. Furthermore, carrying the sleeve, also, is meaningless. A dog is not tested on this, nor does it receive points for it in a trial. It is a training tool utilized, especially with younger dogs that are first learning bitework, in order to maintain control of the dog. It teaches the dog to think while doing bitework. It teaches the dog that it can bite something, grip it, and it does not have to be out of control in the process. It is nothing more than that if the dog is being trained correctly.

Yep. I think you articulated that better than I did.


Someone also mentioned a dog being “dirty”. What this means, as I see it, is the dog nipping or biting at the helper, sleeve, or “bad guy” while it is supposed to be guarding (the bark and hold). While this may be appealing to some, it again, really, only shows a lack of control on the part of the dog. A response to this from some might be that I am talking about Schutzhund here. Well, it holds true in real life situations also. Let’s say you have a PPD and someone is threatening you and the dog corners it, or, completely stops the person’s advances. You have a big legal liability on your hands if the dog goes in and bites after the person stops, especially if it does so repeatedly like a “dirty” dog does. The same holds true for a police dog. When the perpetrator stops, so too should the police dog. If not, major lawsuit. Just like a loaded gun, a dog can be a weapon. A protection trained dog is viewed as such by the courts.

For those reasons, I actually like the idea of teaching a hold command (which requires no headshaking) wherein the dog doesn't release the bite, but also doesn't thrash, bite down harder, etc. Just continues to grip the suspect, making a second attack unlikely, and giving the handler time to bring the situation under control (for a PSD, cuffing the suspect. For a PPD, dial 911 and or find your shoot-shovel-and shut up supplies. Whatever the case may be.)

While I agree that Schutzhund is probably more of a sport now, its focus is on maintaining control of the dog. Look at the bitework, there is more obedience in that phase than there is actual biting. Good point.

The other point that I will make about those who decry Schutzhund is that I have yet to meet a person that has actually taken the time to title a dog that thinks that it is ridiculous. I know of one, but the mere mention of his name on this board will likely mean my permenant banning. His sanity is somewhat suspect, anyway.

I have met people that have titled a dog, or dogs, that no longer train and compete because they do not have the drive, desire, time, or physical ability to do so. Maybe they even don’t like the direction Schuthund has gone, but, I never hear any of these people bad mouthing those who do train and compete. It isn’t that tough to put a Schutzhund 1 title on a dog. Most GSD’s can do it (not American lines). I'll let you know in October if one of the Am. Line dogs in our club manages to title. If she doesn't it'll be due to health issues, not lack of innate ability. But she is likely the exception to that proves the rule.


I think that the other direction that I have seen in this post is that some of you don’t like the way a lot of GSD’s are nowadays. If this is so, then go find the type of dog that you like. No one is forcing you to buy a dog out of, as it was put, highly prey driven dogs. For some reason some of you would like to believe that there were not many differences in GSD’s in “the old days”. You’re wrong. There have always been differences in GSD’s. The dog was never “one size fits all”. That is what makes them so popular, and more importantly, so versatile. The GSD is a breed of dog that may not be the best at any one thing, but, is, hopefully, great at almost everything. That is what makes a GSD the “best” dog in my book.

I agree, and that's actually a big part of my complaint. That the typified breeding for prey has created GSDs that are excellent at sport work (especially Schutzhund), but not as versitile as the breed SHOULD be.
As an example, recall von Stephanitz's description of Horand's adoration of children.

We now have GSDs that cannot be around kids, because their high prey drive makes them a liability.
Was THIS the vision he had?

A GSD should be able to do everything asked of it. It should be versitile and capable of any task any other breed of dog can do.

Pull a sled. Herd livestock. Protect a home. Detect drugs. Comfort a child.
Stay by his master's side quietly, until called upon to work- and then throw himself full-fledged into the work. Whatever the day's work may be.

QUOTE (I know very few of the people in this thread, but, my guess is that there is only one person (you know who you are) in this thread that has actually taken the time to devise other tests, games, or adventures, in order to challenge her dogs’ mental and physical capabilities. If there are others I applaud you also. Write them down and disseminate them so that others can learn from you.)

Yes please do...

I'm appreciating all the great comments thus far thanks.

 Quote: ray fajardo

QUOTE (I know very few of the people in this thread, but, my guess is that there is only one person (you know who you are) in this thread that has actually taken the time to devise other tests, games, or adventures, in order to challenge her dogs’ mental and physical capabilities. If there are others I applaud you also. Write them down and disseminate them so that others can learn from you.)

Yes please do...

I'm appreciating all the great comments thus far thanks.

that's only because my TEEVEE is broke and I can't afford the gas to go anywhere

we use to do "find it" games in the house on rainy days but Mrs Jones put a stop to that. too much torn up and scratched furinture