Quote: Willie Tilton

IF YOU DON'T DO SOMETHING SOON HE WILL ESCALATE AND THIS WILL TURN INTO HUMAN DIRECTED AGGRESSION. THIS WILL STEM FROM A LACK OF A JOB AND LACK OF EXERCISE DISCIPLINE AND AFFECTION IN THAT ORDER.

Willie is absolutely right. I was interested in an Anatolian for a companion dog and spent some time researching the breed (thank goodness). They have been bred longer than most dogs to live in a field not in a house at our feet. This dog needs exercise and work. And they often make their own decisions.

 Quote: Willie Tilton

I have an unbelievable amount of knowledge that could be helpful in this situation that I would be MORE than happy to share with you......If you commit to listening. Not necessarily agreeing, but stopping and listening to what I have to say.

Willie, I would love to hear what you have to offer on this topic and get your insight since you are actively involved with this type of dog, albiet a mixed breed. I'm sure I would learn a great deal and I know others might as well, so for those of us who will open our ears....??

Barbara, Thank you for asking.

I do have tons to contribute, but I'm afraid that it will result in loooong book like posts on my part....but since you asked.... lol

Hmmmmmm, where to start.

There are several issues here.
1 taking a dog trained to one set of rules and life expectations, and expecting it to live in another totally different situation without the proper training.
A LSGD is expected and bred to dominate or eliminate other predators/canines.
It is a obvious and well known fact that LSGD Do not like or do well with herding types. Border collie, ACD, heelers ect. LSGD defined as a working dog that has experience with working stock. not just the breed.
These breeds look and act like coyoties and such. That is how they do their job. putting predatory pressure on the stock being worked with the result of herding. I don't know one single person that doesn't first put up (lock up out of site)
the LSGD before bringing in the herding dogs. this is because the LSGD will not tolerate the herding dog messing with their stock. The result of this clash is one dead herding dog. Thus the LSGD it put away first.
If I remember, the dog she is having problems with is a herding breed...the Very thing the Anatolian's older dog that it lived with and learned from had been teaching it was the enemy.

2 taking a breed with strong instincts and placing it in a situation where it is expected to act opposite to its inbred nature.

3 A total lack of proper Pack rank expectations and behavior.In this case the pack's eyes there isn't an acceptable Alpha in charge. Or to put it another way, an owner who is not in control of the dog pack in question. This is proven by the fact that these problems exist. Cesar Millan has proven that you can have a pack of dogs and maintain it in a positive way.

4 A totally inappropriate physical environment, and lack of enough exercise.
My male LSGD is having a hard time adjusting to having only 3 acres to patrol. He keeps hopping OVER the 4 ft livestock gates....yup just jumps over them and goes off to patrol and bring home some dead coyotes just like his daddy. We are installing an electric radio fence along the field wire to keep him in......But we will also have to hand walk him so he can feel as if he has patrolled. I also intend on training him to do draft work about the farm.


I am actually myself dealing with this same issue (integrating a LSGD into a family) at this moment. We moved from a large farm to a really small one. Only 4 acres. We have a lab farm collie mix that acted on the other farm as a guardian/herding dog...yes, he was a rare one who could do both well.
He was the Alpha dog, and had a job.
Now he doesn't.
I'm a mom of 4 home schooled kids, and my focus wasn't on the dog and his new life.
I stupidly tried to integrate him the wrong way.....AND I knew better...I was just so busy.
NO EXCUSE!!!!!!!
We created a problem through mismanagement. We are fixing it, and its working, but boy is it a lot of work.
I would be happy to share this info, but just outlining the problems is almost a book. lol
If anyone really wants to hear it, then respond, and I would be happy to post.
I just don't want to bore people with book like posts.
Willie

Well, go on Willie. It may be helpful to people who read this thread to know some of your strategies that are working!

This is fascinating! Please, post on.

 Quote: willie tilton

I am actually myself dealing with this same issue (integrating a LSGD into a family) at this moment. We moved from a large farm to a really small one. Only 4 acres. We have a lab farm collie mix that acted on the other farm as a guardian/herding dog...yes, he was a rare one who could do both well.
He was the Alpha dog, and had a job.

Wow, your situation is a lot like mine in many ways. I am also on 4 acres, it is fenced but I do not trust him and am working on installing a radio fence as well. I know I introduced them in the wrong way, I foolishly thought it would work because the breeder said he should be fine with my two dogs, and my Aussie had accepted dog aggressive canines into the house before and masterfully put them at ease though gentle play and good body language.

I will say that while the canine aggression issue has gotten worse especially during hte last couple of weeks, his overall behavior has steadily improved.

If he were on the verge of "breaking" and possibly becoming human aggressive due to a lack of work/exercise I would expect that frustration and anxiety to manifest in multiple ways. I would expect him to become harder and more obstinant as his frustration increased, instead he is becoming more relaxed and compliant. He is learning what I want him to do, and he is steadily becoming more cooperative.

I have had much much more difficult dogs, this dog is probably at his very "worst" right now due to the new home, new rules, household stress and the raging hormones (I had him neutered 2 weeks ago) and yet he is still really a good dog. If I can get through this phase and bring order to the house I honestly expect in another year or so with a bit more experience and mellowing he will be darn near perfect.

Willie I would like to hear any advice you have to give. You apparently have actual experience with a very similar situation.

I also want to add another thing, this aggression has not been linear. For a while it really seemed like they were adjusting to one another, they would ignore eachother just fine in the same room. Well at least the Anatolian would ignore the Aussie, I often put the female in the pen with the Anatolian to keep him entertained and he would play with her or sleep without paying any attention to the males in the room.

I really thought they were making progress and then I did something really stupid. I gave them all bones (yes stupid, I know). The aussie tried to claim the anatolians bone from the outside of the pen and they started to fence fight. Since then the Aussie has been increasingly obsessive, staring and fixating on the Anatolian (even if the pen is covered) and I do believe that is really the root of the problem.

The Aussie is a whole lot softer, perhaps I should start working on his subtle behavior.

I don't know, that is why I need advice here. I know I need to work on becoming pack leader and training all of these dogs, but pack leaders also enforce discipline so I would like clues as to how to directly correct the posturing and such too.

I would be happy to help out, and hope that others will also chime in.
Thank you for being more open to listening.
Since there are also others interested in what I have to say, I will be really methodical and go step by step.

I really need your feedback on the posts, because I need to understand the you are understanding what I'm saying.
It can be hard to be clear in a post thread format sometimes for me.

The very first thing you need to do is order Ed's video on pack leadership and the one on dominant and aggressive dogs. eat spaghetti-os for a month if you have to, its going to get you through this...not me. Sell something if you need to so you can buy them.

You do not have them separated. Separation means that they have no contact. NONE. Not even eye contact.


The Ausie is instigating some of this by his directly confrontational behavior. It is not subtle, it is a direct confrontation, and its going to get him killed if you don't get a handle on it.

So second step.....separate them. Different rooms in crates (not in your bedroom).

Not x pens.

They need to go into what I call boot camp.
Ed goes over this in great detail in his pack leader video.
The dog is placed in social isolation for a period of time from a week to a few months depending on the dog.
You take it out to go to the bathroom, and to exercise it and feed it.
The Anatolian will need a minimum of 3 45 min walks a day in an interval training format. 5 min of brisk walk followed by 5 min of trot, 5 walk 5 trot and so on.
The Aussie will need the same amount of exercise, obviously on different walks.
The dogs need to be walking next to you or behind you on a short loose lead, not in front of you. The pack leader always goes first, through doors, stairs, and on walks.
When you walk you walk, no sniffing or wandering. go to a destination and back. you may stop for a potty break if you want.
Wolves travel easily 10 miles in a day to new hunting grounds, and they follow their alpha in a tidy group without side trips or sniffing. This is what you are going for.
Let me know if you need help with getting them to walk on a leash in this manner.

You are not their leader and at this time are not able to stop them from acting the way they are. They don't respect your leadership, especially the Aussie.
Therefore you need to prevent the problem from happening, and get them to respect you as a leader individually. only then can you even begin to start to expose them to each other.
If you can't walk them that much, then take them each for one walk a day and get a treadmill for the other 2 sessions.
Ed's video also goes into how to crate train dogs. It sounds like you need to do this for the Anatolian.

X-pens WILL NOT WORK. It must be a crate.

The crate is like a den, and once the dog id trained to it, will train the dog to be calm submissive.......but you must do the exercise.
So, I need to know that you accept this, and are clear on the first steps, and don't have any other questions.

also, I will quote from my other post, and I need to know that you understand this and don't have any questions on it either.

1 taking a dog trained to one set of rules and life expectations, and expecting it to live in another totally different situation without the proper training.
A LSGD is expected and bred to dominate or eliminate other predators/canines.
It is a obvious and well known fact that LSGD Do not like or do well with herding types. Border collie, ACD, heelers ect. LSGD defined as a working dog that has experience with working stock. not just the breed.
These breeds look and act like coyoties and such. That is how they do their job. putting predatory pressure on the stock being worked with the result of herding. I don't know one single person that doesn't first put up (lock up out of site)
the LSGD before bringing in the herding dogs. this is because the LSGD will not tolerate the herding dog messing with their stock. The result of this clash is one dead herding dog. Thus the LSGD it put away first.
If I remember, the dog she is having problems with is a herding breed...the Very thing the Anatolian's older dog that it lived with and learned from had been teaching it was the enemy.


Willie

"These breeds look and act like coyotes and such. That is how they do their job. putting predatory pressure on the stock being worked with the result of herding"

I am referring to the herding breeds here, not the LSGD.

I wanted to ask earlier, but is sounded so simplistic in regard to how complicated the situation is...

My question: - Since this large "flock protective" dog has now been brought into a home environment and we can assume he is bonding with his owner, has she now becoming his "flock" and has the aussie become the prey from which he must defend her?

Does this question make any sense?