Patrick, I say this with all respect leave it to you to get topics. I never read this thread it looks real interesting.

Milt

This reminded me of a time in high school I was reading a book from the library and the last chapter had been ripped out. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

My money is on Geoff's theories. I think the others are over reacting with the "fear" aggression BS. Look the dog is a GSD not a Lab or Husky or some other friendly breed. No where in the temperment description of the GSD say te dog must besuper friendly to strangers.
Sometimes at that age the dog is tying to find out "where he is" so to speak. I agree with tht short list f the positive traits that Geoff posted. Yes a dog can be fearful and be at the end of the leash but most real aggressive dogsare at the end of the leash s well.
I would no correct him in the mannr that Philippe did. I would use he opportunity to teach the dog his "job" by teaching him the "watch him" command and the "out" command. If the dog ike to pay ball use that as a release aswell that everything is Ok around the strangers.
This dog should be worked in obed, fetch, and prey bite work. Phillipe lsten to Geoff he makes good sense. Take this dog everywhere and train and play with him everywhere you go. Take him to a crowded area with many people and walk him and you will see him get stronger mentally and his powers of discernment grw as well.
JOY what in your opinion does a confident real biting dog display when he is ready to fight? Should a dog like the GS that is bred to distrust strangers just be like DUH? when someone stares at him? I think it's anthropomorphising the dog wen you think he should realize it's just a mother and daughter.ALo Joy I have read that the Souh African PSD's are pretty darn good.

George

Ok,
I was going to wait a little longer before posting an update. Agression toward strangers is no longer an issue with him. He will greet and approach strangers without hesitation. He is not exactly a social butterfly but with him and strangers it is more like an inspection. He does not jump up on strangers. he is satisfied with just sniffing the stranger and then walking away. Though it might seem strange, he does raise his hackles when he gets exited (as when playing retrieve. His litter mates also do this. He is doing well in tracking. Obediance is an uphill battle for he does not like being told what to do. he also does not tolerate any type of correction. The training directory is working with us one on one for obediance. We are making progress but she says he the type that is going to fight you all the time to establish dominance. The biggest issue we are dealing with is his agressiveness towards other males. As for protection work, we are just working with the puppy tugs. As for being a fear bitter or on the way to becoming one, her response is that he is quite the opposite. She describes him as being a very dominant pushy male that is bold and with whom one can never "cut any slack". She says he is going to be very hard to work with because he will not tolerate corrections. She has been working with him on an individual basis (as in handling him herself). he will now platz on command and consistently. Every times she corrected him he fought with her. I am not to sure if this is normal to have to go through this process when dealing with a dog like him but the trainer says that is the only way with a dominant male like him. None of my other males reacted to corrections as he does. I always praise and reward him with toys or treats for obeying but she says that there will come a point in time that he will even refuse to obey for treats and that I must gain control of him now or have to live with a dog with which i have no control. I hope what I typed makes sense. Do understand he is not being abused by the trainer for I would never tolerate that.He is now 10 months old and 90 pounds of solid muscle.

Time will tell the story on phillipe's dog, but it sounds to me like the TD is right and this boy has some rank / dominance issues that need to be firmly but fairly resolved. I wish him luck.

I do not know Geoff, nor have I ever been to South Africa. I have, however, been to "south city" many, many times. There is a world of difference between talking about something and actually going out and doing it.

South Africa has the highest violent crime rate in the world. They routinely must have cover officers armed with automatic weapons stand overwatch on vehicle stops because so many officers have been ambushed. They track into areas where the thugs have AK-47's, grenades and even rocket launchers. (one of those will ruin your entire night!) As an old time lawman once stated when asked by a young reporter if the methods used in his day were not somewhat brutal: "Well, young lady, them was rough times, and we had to be rough men!"

I'll neither defend nor condemn the political situation there, being several thousand miles away. Nor will I say the selection and training process for both officers and canines could not be improved, but those are comments we could legitimately make about many, many locations and programs much closer to home.

Get on the link that Joy posted about the SA dog program.

First clue: it is by that bastion of "Say what you want and don't worry about the truth" school of journalism, the BBC. Aren't these some of the same folks who are whining about our "inhumane" treatment of Al Queda prisoners now? Might it be possible they could be the teeniest bit guilty of over sensationalism?

Second clue: the guy being quoted is from Switzerland. SWITZERLAND!!!!! What does some guy from Switzerland...who has never even been a cop...anywhere...know about PSD's in South Africa? (How can I tell he's never been a cop? After seeing his website, I guarantee he would be blowing that horn, too, if he could!) Somehow, I don't think he has picked up much hands-on experience in fighting street crime in Switzerland!

I'll tell you what he does know...he knows there might be some M O N E Y in it for him! He sells training, dogs, and trained dogs...imagine that!

Next, get on the link to his "International Police K9 Academy". This guy may be an excellent trainer for all I know, but methinks he doth boast an awful lot to only have six references from PD's in the U.S.

AND...last I knew, Donn Yarnell owned and trained the dog that played "Jerry Lee" in the movie K9. (actually, as I recall, there were several dogs in that movie, but the main actor was "Koton" (sp?) who Donn later sold to Kansas City where he was renamed "Star" and was shot and killed in the line of duty.)

Third clue: He (Hans Schlegel) calls himself a trainer of "Master" trainers...Mebbe so, but that's also a pretty big claim to live up to.

Conclusion: As Ed has said numerous times, we must be very cautious of trainers who have no solid grounding in actual police work telling cops how to deploy or train their dogs. This is not some sort of elitism, snobbery, or the old boys club in action. Nor is a slur upon the many really fine, knowledgable non-police trainers out there who have had, and continue to have, much positive influence upon police training...we can all learn from each other.

Still, if you have never been to the dark places, never done a search for someone who really would kill you if you made a mistake, never felt that little knot of fear and excitement all at once in your gut...please be careful about judging those who do. And step lightly when it comes to presuming you "know" anything because you read it or saw it on television.

PS: Yeah, I know this is a little off-thread but thanks for listening.

I took my pup to the park and to a petco today. Not one problem out of him. At the park he greeted kids and adults as they past by us as we were walking on the forest trail. Same thing at the store. I think every clerk at the store got a wet sniff from my pup. I also got a perfect opportunity to get him use to a large group of people in a small location. There were about a dozen teenager in the store all of which were together as a group (they were looking a parokee). It was my pup's idea to approach them for a sniff. He was surrounded by teenager wanting to pet him (after the 1st one had the courage to pet him). When the second teenager approached him from the side and started peting him. He did get nervous for a split second then relaxed and enjoyed all the petting. Once he was done sniffing them , he simply walked away from them. he is satisfied with just taking one sniff of a person and then walks away. Unlike any other dog i have ever had, he does not jump on people, nor pull like a maniac to get petted. Same thing happens with visitors that come inside the house. he goes to them takes a sniff or two then walks away and positions himself so he can watch their every move. I was worried when I made my original post but he seems to be turning out well.