Lynne- I do trust my dog. He has never acted in a way that makes me concerned about biting strangers, but I don't trust people and I'm not taking that chance. If some idiot approaches him in a threatening way and he bites, he could lose his life over it. I protect him and myself by not allowing strangers to approach him. I used to work for a veterinarian and I understand what you're saying, but my dog is well socialized to the point that he ignores strangers. Again, my main issue is when I'm in the middle of training him and I have to keep stopping to tell people to leave him alone. As far as the police dog aspect, the local k-9s are quite the opposite of what you described....they are generally aloof in public and due to liability, cannot be approached by the public. I was raised to believe that every dog will and can bite if the scenario is right so I treat every dog with respect and I demand the same repect to be given to my dog. My dog is perfectly well behaved in public and can be approached by people of my choosing with no issues at all. I'm just not going to allow anyone who feels like it to walk up to him and interrupt a training session.

 Quote: Lynne Peck

OK - just general thoughts here after reading the thread. Olivia - in the end - don't police dogs have to be social, friendly and approachable by the public? Dont police officers take their dogs to schools to educate and do demos for the public and allow strangers to touch their dogs?

No, not all police dogs are social - how good would a riot control dog be if it were. When they do a school education thing, I have seen retired dogs or young dogs brought in. I have also seen an active K9 brought in, but the officer just spoke, none of us petted the dog. I'm sure there are some social police dogs - but I would not think it was a requirement.

If you plan on walking your dog in public, it is your responsibility to control your dog - unfortunately - and that means if there is a chance the dog will bite - then he shouldn't be walked in large crowds. When obtaining your BH in schutzhund - in real events - the dogs are REQUIRED to go to a public place and walk calmly and quietly through crowded public areas and show no aggression.

Also, for the BH your dog is not petted by anyone in the crowd. Olivia never said her dog lunged out and bit anyone - she said he was aloof and reserved with strangers and preferred not to be petted. There was nothing in there about unsocialized.

I would think you would want to make sure your dog is approachable by people and well socialized to activity of society.

My idea of socialized is a dog that is calm, stable and confident in all situations - that has nothing to do with dog/people friendly. I expect indifference, tolerance and neutrality to new people and dogs - they do not have to like them or be friendly towards them, just ignore.

If you plan on taking the dog in public you should not have to worry about whether he is going to bite or not. Dogs work in muzzles in protection work, so if you're that worried, then maybe this is part of the solution. If people approach, say that dog is in training and do not run at strange dogs, but I would think you would want to encourage the events of REAL LIFE situations. If you don't want people petting then don't put yourself in that situation.

I have 20 plus years in veterinary experience and have worked dogs for over 40 years in different situations. It is very scary when a dog comes in to work on and you have to worry about being bitten in the face because the dog was not socialized.

Being bitten in the face by clients dogs has nothing to do with socialization. I have 4 dogs, 2 who like the vet and 2 who don't. One had a bad experience where a vet grabbed her very roughly and caused her to yelp at 6 months old, at 1 year when I brought her back, she decided that she didn't trust them. I think a lot of vets and vet techs (not all) get themselves into trouble when they do not listen to the owner of the dog and when they fail to read body language properly and project the wrong energy to the dogs all together.

We used to see all the Phoenix Police dogs and they were always wonderful to work on - they have to serve as ambassadors for the police dept.



Again - just my opinion - but what's the difference of walking a dog in public and passing someone and the dog lunging and biting because something startled him and people walking over?

Again, she never said the dog reacted aggressively.

I know I'll get alot of diagreements but when you work a dog in public you better have really good $1,000,000 coverage to protect yourself, especially if you can't trust your dog.

Thanks, Niomi; I kept meaning to correct this and got sidetracked:

Lynne: "OK - just general thoughts here after reading the thread. Olivia - in the end - don't police dogs have to be social, friendly and approachable by the public? Dont police officers take their dogs to schools to educate and do demos for the public and allow strangers to touch their dogs?"

Naomi: No, not all police dogs are social - how good would a riot control dog be if it were. When they do a school education thing, I have seen retired dogs or young dogs brought in. I have also seen an active K9 brought in, but the officer just spoke, none of us petted the dog. I'm sure there are some social police dogs - but I would not think it was a requirement.

In my town, Lynne, there is a "liaison" dog who shoulders those responsibilities.

Otherwise, the answer is "no."

 Quote: lynne peck

in the end - don't police dogs have to be social, friendly and approachable by the public? Dont police officers take their dogs to schools to educate and do demos for the public and allow strangers to touch their dogs?

I'm sorry but um, NO. Working, active military and police dogs that are both good at work and fit the above description are extremely rare. Now I'm not saying LE dogs are vicious or unstable but they are not typically "approachable". Especially when they are "working" and they know the difference. One reason you as a vet or vet tech were able to handle them so easily is that they are trained from the get go to be examined all over on a regular basis. The military k-9 training outlines a specific routine for inspecting the dog.

Many LE dogs go home and are good with their partner's family but even those children don't pet the dog when he's out and on duty.

Aside from all that, Olivia just wants to not be interrupted while training. The dog culture in some public places just feels really out of control when all these people with their dogs want to "make friends" and "socialize". When you have high-drive dogs with exposure to bite training your liability is huge. I totally get being extra cautious and avoiding the POTENTIAL for a bad situation to happen. Like Olivia said, our dogs will pay with their lives. The stakes are too high to take a chance. None of us think sweet little 7 month old Vader is going to attack someone. But it is smart and the require level of vigilance we all have to live with to prepare for that.

A lot of the dogs that go into schools and interact with children are not dual-purpose dogs. Often, they are strictly scent-trained dogs, with no apprehension training.

Obviously, you can always find exceptions to the rule. But they remain... exceptions.

While I think the muzzle idea will deter people, it's really the worst thing for you, if he ever does hurt someone (even with his claws), if you are worried about liability. It's the same issue with telling people "my dog will bite you".
In Canada, we don't really have people fishing for lawsuits, but if I were looking to sue someone, taunting a dog already were a muzzle might be a good bet.

I know it all goes against what many have learned growing up. And we all want to get along in our communities and with our neighbors. And we all like to have and use our social graces to everyone's benefit.
But really, why put up with bores that have none of the above to share?

J_u_s_t...s_a_y....NO!

Feel free to add damn it if you like.

eta,
As someone else mentioned earlier, after the first couple of times you'll be surprised how comfortable it'll start feeling.

 Quote: brad higgs

Lucky over here no-one approaches my dogs in fact they usually get well out of the way, they may comment on them (usually good) but never come near!

LOL!

Off topic but there are two wonderful Pits in my town and when the owner walks them down Main Street its like watching the Red Sea part. Of course though, these dogs are trained to the 9's and are just the best.

@Olivia
My dog is a people-magnet. I've found that for the most part the adults that approach us are themselves dog-people and are generally very understanding if I say "not today thanks, we are training..."

But some young kids are not taught by their parents to (a) ALWAYS ask for permission before approaching a dog, and (b) to accept the fact that the dogs owner may not want them to interact with the dog. So instead, some kids just run right up.

So when it comes to young kids I use the "hot burner STOP". Its how you would say "STOP! or NO!" to instantly stop your 4 year old who is just about to put their hand on a red hot burner. It halts kids right in their tracks.

Then, either they run back to their parents and hopefully get a lecture, or if they stay, I briefly explain to them why they ALWAYS have to ask for permission before approaching dogs, and if I sense that they get the message, I allow them to interact with Brodie.

Well guess I'm in the minority but in Olivia's first note she said she was afraid he might bite even tho hr was good with her child. I understand training the dog, but if you are walking a dog who has has bite training and for any reason the dog does bite - HE WILL pay for it with his life because now he is considered a LETHAL weapon. You knowingly took a dog that has the capabilitity to bite and has been trained to bite into a busy crowd - whether training or not. Our schutzhund trainer would adamently disagree and says that anyone should be able to approach your dog without having to worry about the dog either jumping up and scratching or snapping at someone's face. He says to encourage people to come and pet the dog. He has over 20 years training military, police, schutzhund, personal protection, etc dogs and his students are awards the top scores here in Phx in the sport rings.

Now granted, I can understand training and some stupid kid or adult running over in the middle of a training session and butting in and wanting to pet the dog. That would be a big no. I just know that just the fact of the breed of dogs that everyone has here, and the fact that alot of you do schutzhund or protection work - automatically those dogs are going to be held to higher standards and tougher laws. Most states allow 1 bite. The next one is euthanasia. It also opens you up to multiple law suits whrre someone would not only take your dog, but your home, your car and any savings you may have.

I have a rottie who is not protection trained. In fact kids can climb all over her and she mothers everything. One day she was required to protect us and almost died doing her job. My husband wound up having to get a rifle and calling the cops. The dog spent many days at the vet. Mind you this dog has her Canine Good Citizen. The next year we had an insurance claim on a tack room w/storm damage. We were ordered to get rid of the rottie or lose our home owner's which we had had for over 20 years with same company - when they saw her in the yard. Naturally we cancelled our insurance and found another carrier.

Everyone has an opinion and just because it differs from yours does not make it wrong. Things are learned thru experience and until you have had to deal with some event personally, you have no idea the repercussions. Take my opinion with a grain of salt, but don't discount it because if your dog does bite someone in the future, you will lose your dog. I had a shepherd who had never shown any tendencies and had high obedience level training. One day out of nowhere, she bit a friend of my son's in the face. The next day she was dead. Thank goodness it was a friend and didn't sue.

Of course I'm afraid he might bite...he's an animal with a mind of his own. He is well behaved and not aggressive, but again, ALL DOGS CAN BITE! It has nothing to do with his breed or his training...he's a dog and he can bite. I don't understand your statement about knowingly taking a dog who has the capability to bite...all dogs have that capability. What does "trained to bite into a busy crowd" mean?? First of all, he's not trained for protection work yet. That's the intention, but so far he is purely trained in obedience. Second, he is never near a "busy crowd". I've walked him through lots of people before when I had no choice and he was fine, but I do my best to avoid people.

I respect what your trainer says, but I will agree to disagree on this point. I want my dog to have 110% focus on me at all times. If people are constantly approaching him to pet or play, he is going to start looking to strangers for attention. My dog is easily approached by those few people whom I allow, but for the most part, he ignores strangers. I consider it a good thing when five kids can zoom past him on scooters and he never gives them a second glance. In my sig picture, there were kids around doing just that and he never lost his focus off of me. I have my reasons for what I do and I stand by them, but I respect your opinions too and will just agree to disagree