Let us know what happens, OK?

For sure! It's the pits when there's only so-so vets around. We've got two... actually pretty nice guys, but it's a poor area, so they just focus on triage, mostly, and don't do anything elaborate 'cause they probably won't get paid. We go an hour and a half away for anything serious or requiring finesse... the local one we do use does approve raw diets if they're done right. He'll approve anything that better than Old Roy... heck, he even approves of that if you'll just feed your dog! (lotsa chain dogs around here).

Hope your girl is OK...

I got her into the new vet today, she has an infection in her milk ducts so shes getting meds now and the vet said she "shouldnt"be in heat right now with 4 week old pupps so i have to bring her back in 2 weeks to check if she has a utrine infection
i also had him check her mouth and teeth and nose again and he said, no defect or deviation, no infection, nasals clear and her teeth look good. so im still stumped, he said its most likely behavioural.

Selene,
So happy you were able to get her to the new vet. She is absolutely adorable.

I'm trying to put a time line together in my mind. How old was she when you got her from the kennel and how soon after that was she bred? I'm thinking maybe the air licking could be related to the pregnancy......maybe the infection has been brewing for awhile?

I'm not sure if air licking and bed licking are the same but my dog takes to licking his bed when he is in pain. He has done this following his neuter surgery and surgery to remove a tumor. And yes it is annoying . I imagine it could develop into an obsessive behavior rather quickly.

I second Connie's suggestion of short upbeat marker sessions but will add a caveat. Interrupt the air licking before you begin the session....tricky this part; because you want her to realize no air licking equals fun air licking equals nothing.

I've never worked on an obsessive behavior but I'm wondering (please anyone who has done this work chime in) if it would be beneficial to work on "no air licking" as the behavior. For instance something along the lines of do whatever interrupts the licking such as when you walk out of a room does she momentarily stop as she gets up to follow you? If so as soon as she stops "mark" and treat. As soon as she finishes that treat and is not licking mark again and treat; pretty much mark and treat continually as long as there is no licking. Begin to increase the wait time count to one if there is no licking "mark" "treat" if there is licking use your no reward marker I use "too bad" and turn my head away hopefully this will interrupt the behavior and you can immediately mark that and treat. Slowly build duration. Work in seconds first and be random. Mark and Treat after 5 seconds then after 2 then after 10 then after 5 etc...
Once she understands; the duration will build quickly.

But! before doing this I would wait to hear back from people who have done this kind of work just in case I'm leading you down a dead end.

I'm not an expert so take my thoughts in that context... There is a technique for clicker training a dog away from reactive aggression by clicking for calm, lowered levels of excitement. I'm going to assume the licking is anxiety, and it might be exacerbated by two things you describe - the tail pulling and your withdrawal because the air licking is driving you crazy. The first step is to make sure she is never 'attacked' by the male again. We don't know how upsetting she is finding it, she is definitely not comfortable and tail dragging incidents should be considered a contributing factor. With regards to your withdrawal, I suggest an alternate behavior. Call her to you instead of trying to get away from her. Engage with her with a clicker training session to practice whatever ob repertoire you have developed to date, even puppy pushups will help (sit, down, sit, down, etc. With a click and a treat for each move). I would ignore the tongue licking but reward the absence of kicking, so, time your click very carefully at first to catch her when her tongue is in her mouth and click and treat her rapid fire. The licking is symptomatic and it sounds like it is habitual. If you ignore and engage with her in productive ways she is going to become more confident that you do care for her and she can have a healthy attachment and confidence instead of getting under your feet and air licking. I guess I am suggesting you treat it as if it were reactive behavior and help her through it with management, desensitization, ob, and appropriate affection.

Edited by Jenny Arntzen (05/25/2011 09:40 AM)
Edit reason: I can't edit on my iPad... If you ignore it (the air licking)

"I'm not sure if air licking and bed licking are the same but my dog takes to licking his bed when he is in pain. "


Good point. I've seen that bed- and fabric-licking of a dog in pain before.

I have to pay extra attention to the air-licking in my guy.

"The first step is to make sure she is never 'attacked' by the male again. We don't know how upsetting she is finding it, she is definitely not comfortable and tail dragging incidents should be considered a contributing factor. "


I sure do hope it's really clear throughout the thread that this can't be allowed.

This is what a pack leader protects the pack members from and disallows in the perpetrator.


JMO!

eta
Really good posts here.

Edited by Connie Sutherland (05/25/2011 11:00 AM)
Edit reason: eta

We are actually her second owner, she was shipped from a kennel in slavokia and the women (lesbian) that had her suddenly got pregnant so they wantd to get rid of her, since we were on the list waiting for a breeder they sent her to us. shes 27 months and ive had her for 7 months, i wanted to get her checked and watch her temperment before we bread her. She was checked numorous times and was deemend healthy (stupid vet) tho i did take her to a reporductive dr cause she has a scar on her belly and noone seems to know where it came from. That de did all kinda of checks and said she was fully clear repoductivly, im working order, no scars inside and her uterus was tilted properly ( a problem he said he finds alot in smaller breeds) we skipped 1 heat, the second never came and she cycled again in feb i have the exact dates in my agenda. The pups have had a bit of issues with inections which the REP vet said can be caused by the mother getting a herpis infection (had my male checked hes clean) once the pups fully wean ill get her tested and the vet recomends vacinating against herpis (the infection they assume she got that causes these kinda issues in pup) but again, ihate vacination (thoguhts?) The air licking has been here since day one, tho everyone ever in contact says they have NEVER seen this behaviour on her before. i did briing her into the house with a male present, tho she loves him and spends every waking moment that she can by him. If hes crated she will cry outside his cage till she can go in and sleep with him... only when hes in it tho.

Another thought: when im down here she only barls at ppl passing by but when my hubby is here she whines everytime he kisses me, goes through a dooor and REALLY cries when he goes to bed.. how shes knows hes going to bed i have no clue. but the licking goes on all day, walking , sitting, laying, waiting for food.. litteraly all the time. My males used to do the bed licking but he stopped when ginger came home. He has an annoying habit now of licking my all the time.. he walks up and licks my feet, my hands.. i often wonder if her air licking is a sort of coping what he does only she doesnt lick ME.

"when im down here she only barls at ppl passing by but when my hubby is here she whines everytime he kisses me, goes through a dooor and REALLY cries when he goes to bed.. "


This smacks to me of pack structure needed.... the mild resource guarding, etc., along with the other issues posted .....

NILIF would be in place if this was going on with my pack members, along with some serious stepping into my pack-leader shoes (ending that tail-dragging, protecting the pack member being dragged, starting daily marker work, assuming ownership of the floor and the space around me) .....

And I'd be looking hard for a vet I trusted for a thorough eval for that air-licking, along with distractions from it in the form of upbeat training sessions.

None of her first owner's issues (and her sexual orientation especially) really have bearing on the dog who is in front of you now and needs reliable, strong, dependable pack structure.



eta
I'm not even addressing the issue of breeding her. That would be the very last thing in my mind. JMO!

 Quote: selene lindhout

.... i did briing her into the house with a male present, tho she loves him and spends every waking moment that she can by him. If hes crated she will cry outside his cage till she can go in and sleep with him... only when hes in it tho.

Another thought: when im down here she only barls at ppl passing by but when my hubby is here she whines everytime he kisses me, goes through a dooor and REALLY cries when he goes to bed.. how shes knows hes going to bed i have no clue. but the licking goes on all day, walking , sitting, laying, waiting for food.. litteraly all the time. My males used to do the bed licking but he stopped when ginger came home. He has an annoying habit now of licking my all the time.. he walks up and licks my feet, my hands.. i often wonder if her air licking is a sort of coping what he does only she doesnt lick ME.

What does "down here" mean? Same house, right?

Is this a house-dog (I hope, since Pugs are not suited for anything else)?

I'm maybe seeing dog-bonded stuff (maybe reading wrongly) that suggests dogs who have become"doggy" from more interaction among themselves than with their humans.

These are family dogs, right?



BTW, "annoying habits" like licking you are simply not allowed.