"If it's not fear then PLEASE take video of the clicker person clicking away at a dog that wants to chomp away, lol."


Oh gosh, well, I guess I could try to set that up. It was really scary, I can't let him get that close to somebody again. I can probably get something, however.


That was a joke. The "lol" meant that the idea of a person clicking away at a dog facing them aggressively was funny. Please do not even consider "setting that up."

I'm interested in what you thought about however much you have read of the desensitizing threads. (I know you probably haven't been able to read them all.)

My problem is setting up the situations, since he isn't that scared outside the house, and I don't have enough friends willing to come be barked at, lol. Or even to act intimidating on a trail in the woods. I'm going to try. Over time, I hope he will experience enough for him to get better. Plus/minus as far as being able to stay away from people most of the time, as I usually can.


The work starts with basic ob and focus work in a distraction-free environment. Nothing to set up yet. You need to be working on bullet-proof ob in a NILIF environment at home. And when you do start working around but not within reactive range, why would anyone be barked at? (They wouldn't. That's not the goal.)

The later work is done OUTSIDE the dog's reactive range. The reactive range itself shrinks as you work on focus (keeping the dog's attention on you), on bulletproof ob (which you don't have even a glimmering of yet), and on the dog's perception of you as his leader and protector. The threads we talked about start from step one.




I'd like to discuss the action to move forward, establish a strong bond between you and the dog, work on focus and ob, and increase his confidence (and his confidence in you too) -- all of which will give the dog some security and lower his reactivity. QUOTE: "All that pack leader and dominance stuff, I'm going to still have to be convinced of." You need to be the dog's leader. "Dominance" is a term that's overused anyway, and is really overused in this thread.

I'd like to discuss real marker training (it sounds to me so far to have been mainly bribing with food).

That's what I want too; I think the marker training is so cool, and I've been bragging about it to everybody, and I'm very disappointed to find out I did it all wrong.


Please describe how you charged (loaded) your marker. That can at least get us into some verbs.





If you have any video of the dog in any reactive situation, that would be good.

No, I don't have any videos of him being bad (except growling at me when I was on the computer too long.) When I get somebody to come over here, and I have him on a leash good and everything, I'll have my BF record it.

"Being bad" is a great term to lose. Growling at you for attention is something you didn't explain by saying "offering behaviors." You asked for and rewarded growling??





.... so far, what have you taken away from the descriptions of desensitizing a reactive dog?

.... start small and far away, reward for the lack of fear behavior, gradually increase/bring nearer, but go back when fear behavior starts, give commands he knows in the presence of the fearful thing to help calm and focus, always reward, don't punish.

You start, distraction-free, working with the dog, doing ob and focus work, all his attention on you.





Do you think I should go to the beginning obedience class? Answered before:

 Quote: Connie Sutherland

 Quote: Rovena Kessinger

Oh yea, I remember something else I wanted to ask: Should I take him to a basic obedience class? I'm not that interested in what the teacher would do, having discovered marker-training, but the socialization aspect of it. Or would that not be a good idea?

Thanks!

IMO, no. I agree with your hesitation.

It will be available again, right? You could have a ton of desensitizing work under your belt in a few months.

Also, he has a rabies shot due this month. I'm kind of dreading that. I've been training him to accept a muzzle; he's pretty good about that now. I will put the dominant dog collar on him too, in case the prong collar isn't a good idea.

Please describe a past vet visit.






Right now, he is contained at home, and people are safe.

What is his exercise? Please describe daily structured exercise.





He guards when we are walking, but it's not nearly as bad as at home. He usually only becomes aggressive if the person "looks weird", like a man walking towards us with a walking stick, or a man with a bicycle helmet who talked to us, or a man at the vet who looked at us.

This isn't "guarding." But terminology is becoming a huge time-waster in this thread. JMHO. So .... the dog is contained (100%) at home, correct? He has zero access to people entering the yard, and he is put up before the door is ever opened to anyone? On walks, what do you do when you approach someone who he looks at and becomes focused on?

 Quote: Mara Jessup

... What I would do right away with this dog is put him on a "Nothing in life is free" program. Anything good, he needs to earn. Calm behavior earns him what he wants. No growling to get things, no barking at you to get things. He wants something, he needs to be calm. Perid.

I'd also have scheduled crate time/down time. IE, in the mornings go out with him, exercise him, do a training session then crate him with something to keep him calmly occupied (frozen stuffed kong). When he gets used to the idea of just chilling out, he can stay with you, but he needs to chill.

But for the calm crate time to work he's going to need to have sufficient physical/mental exercise first

Teach him to be calm and focused inside the house in day to day life so you have the calm behavior to work with/build on.

Personally, I would do all of this before you try desensitizing him him out and about or with diferent situation. Once you have good control and respect from your dog in everyday home life, then you can up the training to the desensitization level. Before that I don't think it's going to be that effective.

So would I. 100% agreement. Basic ob and focus (and strict consistent NILIF) in a distraction-free environment.

I hope the O.P. will read this post two or three times.

JMO!

 Quote: Mara Jessup

What I'm seeing here is a dog with some fear issues that have been magnified because he's getting away with it. As far as reacting more where he's comfortable, I'm not surprised. He's displayed the behavior, it worked, and he's comfortable enough in his own home to do it again.

Oh yea, I forgot about that; it worked, that's why it escalated. I wonder if he stops being afraid at some point; maybe he had lost his fear by the last time when it was so bad. Maybe it's a lot worse situation then; attacking without fear.

 Quote:

What I would do right away with this dog is put him on a "Nothing in life is free" program. Anything good, he needs to earn. Calm behavior earns him what he wants. No growling to get things, no barking at you to get things. He wants something, he needs to be calm. Perid.

I'd also have scheduled crate time/down time. IE, in the mornings go out with him, exercise him, do a training session then crate him with something to keep him calmly occupied (frozen stuffed kong). When he gets used to the idea of just chilling out, he can stay with you, but he needs to chill.

But for the calm crate time to work he's going to need to have sufficient physical/mental exercise first
Teach him to be calm and focused inside the house in day to day life so you have the calm behavior to work with/build on.

Personally, I would do all of this before you try desensitizing him him out and about or with diferent situation. Once you have good control and respect from your dog in everyday home life, then you can up the training to the desensitization level. Before that I don't think it's going to be that effective.

I just watched that video. Unfortunately, I think you are right. I say unfortunately because of the huge amount of discipline necessary on my part. Watching those videos, I realized how much discipline the person has to have. Which I already knew; you can't give anther individual discipline you don't have yourself.

 Quote: Connie Sutherland

"I mean the problem of me not being able to call him off if he was ever loose at home and somebody came in the yard. "

This cannot happen.

eta
The dog cannot be loose where it's in any way possible for anyone else to enter or approach.

Please believe me, I know that now. I know I was stupid at first, but I don't want a person hurt, Mondo killed, and me with a big lawsuit. Luckily, I've got a situation where even if he never gets to the point where I can control him verbally off-leash, nobody just innocently entering my yard will encounter him unexpectedly. They would have to make a special effort, like climbing the fence (gates are locked), and if I were in a neighborhood with kids, I know that wouldn't even be good enough, but nobody around here is going to do that.

I'm not nearly as irresponsible as what happened at first makes me seem to be. I feel really bad that I let that happen. It really was just pure stupidity and ignorance. I'm in my 40's, and had dogs all my life, am of semi-sound mind, yet somehow, I didn't realize the danger. He was so happy and fun at the shelter! I always strays before; I come from MO, and they would show up periodically. But there aren't any strays in northern WI, I guess the winters are too hard, that's why I thought I better get a young dog before my old ones were gone, so he could "learn" from them. Like, learn that the UPS man is nice, with treats, and you should be happy when he comes. :frown: It just didn't work out the way I thought it would, not at all.

 Quote: Connie Sutherland

"If it's not fear then PLEASE take video of the clicker person clicking away at a dog that wants to chomp away, lol."


Oh gosh, well, I guess I could try to set that up. It was really scary, I can't let him get that close to somebody again. I can probably get something, however.


That was a joke. The "lol" meant that the idea of a person clicking away at a dog facing them aggressively was funny. Please do not even consider "setting that up."

But that is what happened. It was like the second most scary thing I've ever seen, after the first most of the UPS man encounter. I had a nylon collar I could choke him with on him at first, that's why he couldn't get to her.

(Oh yea...she said he was scared too. She was not moving, not even her eyes, because that would make him lunge, and whispering to me, "he's very scared...")

OK, I'm going to do the timeline of events, and I'll describe what happened with her.

 Quote: Rovena Kessinger

 Quote: Connie Sutherland

"If it's not fear then PLEASE take video of the clicker person clicking away at a dog that wants to chomp away, lol."


Oh gosh, well, I guess I could try to set that up. It was really scary, I can't let him get that close to somebody again. I can probably get something, however.


That was a joke. The "lol" meant that the idea of a person clicking away at a dog facing them aggressively was funny. Please do not even consider "setting that up."

But that is what happened. It was like the second most scary thing I've ever seen, after the first most of the UPS man encounter. I had a nylon collar I could choke him with on him at first, that's why he couldn't get to her.

(Oh yea...she said he was scared too. She was not moving, not even her eyes, because that would make him lunge, and whispering to me, "he's very scared...")

OK, I'm going to do the timeline of events, and I'll describe what happened with her.

The joke was asking for video of a dangerous but ludicrous situation.

No timeline of this event is needed.

Quotes from above:

Please describe how you charged (loaded) your marker. That can at least get us into some verbs.



Growling at you for attention is something you didn't explain by saying "offering behaviors." You asked for and rewarded growling??



Please describe a past vet visit.



What is his exercise? Please describe daily structured exercise.



On walks, what do you do when you encounter someone who the dog looks at and becomes focused on?

 Quote: Connie Sutherland

The work starts with basic ob and focus work in a distraction-free environment. Nothing to set up yet. You need to be working on bullet-proof ob in a NILIF environment at home. And when you do start working around but not within reactive range, why would anyone be barked at? (They wouldn't. That's not the goal.)

Yes. I am doing that now. I do it several times per day, he is really good with his basic commands, he focuses on me really well. Inside, he can tolerate the distraction of something say like me telling him to stay and then stepping a few feet away and feeding a cat some treats, stuff like that. He loves tug of war and will "give" on command. (I didn't know it was supposed to be "out".) I haven't tried much obedience training outside, except for recall. When I walk with him off-leash, I do it where there aren't people. Before I knew totally how he was, we ran into people off-leash, but with my other dog/friend's dog with him, he was fine.

 Quote:

The later work is done OUTSIDE the dog's reactive range. The reactive range itself shrinks as you work on focus (keeping the dog's attention on you), on bulletproof ob (which you don't have even a glimmering of yet), and on the dog's perception of you as his leader and protector. The threads we talked about start from step one.

OK, yes, this in the DVD, that is what you mean, I need to do that. Focusing on me, not on anything else. It doesn't have to be in the presence of something he's scared of, just something he reacts to, like if he wants to run around, or chase a squirrel, or whatever.

Inside, Mondo does focus on me. Outside, he focuses on the world. I need to make him focus on me outside too.

 Quote:

I'd like to discuss the action to move forward, establish a strong bond between you and the dog, work on focus and ob, and increase his confidence (and his confidence in you too) -- all of which will give the dog some security and lower his reactivity.

Yes; that's putting it into words that make sense to me.

 Quote:

Please describe how you charged (loaded) your marker. That can at least get us into some verbs.

The clicker-trainer got me started, and I read some books. It was at first click-treat, click-treat, click-treat. Then we walked around the yard on the leash doing that, click-treat for focusing on me, ignoring him when he wasn't, me saying his name, click-treat for eye-contact. Stuff like that. She said to click at the exact moment he does the behavior, which I try to do.

 Quote:

If you have any video of the dog in any reactive situation, that would be good.

Darn, I just never did that; I wish I would have recorded the trainer situation. It always just happened so fast; the last thing I thought of was recording it. I'm going to call somebody who trusts that I can hold him back, and have them walk into my yard soon. It would be interesting to see what would happen at this point anyway. It hasn't been a really long time, a month or so, but he changed very quickly over the time he was here.

 Quote:

"Being bad" is a great term to lose. Growling at you for attention is something you didn't explain by saying "offering behaviors." You asked for and rewarded growling??

Was that a bad thing to do? (I must seem mentally deficient, I know.) I was high with the power of clicker-training, being able to teach him anything, I thought, and that one was so easy, so yes, I admit, I taught him to bark and growl on command. (He's really good; he'll do either one, he knows the difference.)

 Quote:

You start, distraction-free, working with the dog, doing ob and focus work, all his attention on you.

He can do that, and even with minimal distractions. So I've got some start. I know the outside stuff will be very difficult.

 Quote:

IMO, no. I agree with your hesitation.

It will be available again, right? You could have a ton of desensitizing work under your belt in a few months.

Yes, they start up every few months, now I realize that is not going to be productive without doing these other things you've said. And I bet I won't need it if I do what you say anyway.

Thanks so much. I really appreciate it. I did take that post by Marsa about re-establishing routine etc. to heart, and I will work on my own discipline so I can do the right thing. I just realized, even in the period of time writing in this thread, he is already controlling me again. He wants my attention all the time. I've really reinforced that growling thing by always responding to it. That was a bad mistake. Now I'm jumping up and doing a little muzzle training and toe-nail-grinder training every time he does it. (He doesn't like those things, and seems sorry he bothered me when I do that. He doesnt' try to get away, but I can see he's a lot less happy and wild. He's still not too unhappy, even with those things, however.)

 Quote:

Please describe a past vet visit.

I'm going to make a timeline in another post, and I'll describe that in detail there.

 Quote:

What is his exercise? Please describe daily structured exercise.

In the morning, we do some training/playing inside (snow on the ground now; I walk the dogs and could train outside in the warmer months). I alternate some obedience with some tug of war and retrieving from one end of the house to the other, or up and down the steps. Just stuff like that, him and I interacting with me up on my feet and playing. Not really exercise, but interaction, and after a while of that, he will lie back down and I can get ready for work.

During the day, he and the other dogs are out in the garage or in the yard, going in and out the dog door. My 12 year old will play with him, but not as much as he'd like.

In the evening after work, I bring him inside, do some training like in the AM, do my inside exercise (lift weights) with him usually in the room and playing with one of his chew-toys, or sometimes outside if he wants to be, in the yard. He is much more awake and interested in things outside at night than in the morning. Then we go for a walk; I walk about two miles, but he probably runs a lot more. He and my other big dog stay with me well off-leash. He needs that running time, for sure; he just runs like crazy. On weekends, I take longer walks, several hours, and he gets very exhausted after those.

 Quote:

This isn't "guarding." But terminology is becoming a huge time-waster in this thread. JMHO. So .... the dog is contained (100%) at home, correct? He has zero access to people entering the yard, and he is put up before the door is ever opened to anyone? On walks, what do you do when you approach someone who he looks at and becomes focused on?

As happens in discussion on many subjects, half the disagreements are semantics, I think. Have to define the words before you use them, and a lot of times you don't realize how tricky the definitions are, until you get into it.

OK, yes, I swear he is confined at home. We almost never have visitors. I'm going to sound like a weirdo; I'm really not that much. My BF and I moved here to WI a few years ago, no family around, our friends up here are mostly just people at work, we're boring and go to bed early and at our age, people don't really just come by to visit that much, I guess. In the timeline, I'll describe the one time we had visitors since I got him.

Connie, thanks a lot for your help. It's very kind of you take the time to understand the situation and give me good individual advice. I hired that clicker trainer, and she was a very nice person with good intentions, but for some reason, we just weren't clicking (Lol well we were clicking a lot, but something was missing.) I was always doing it wrong, like saying "no", but then she would say "no" to him too. Oh well, I did get a start with her.

I forgot the question about what he does on walks. I'll describe that in the timeline, because it has changed over time. I think things are still in teh process of change, so I need to get them on the right track, before they settle down permanently into something I don't want.

When I walk with him off-leash, I do it where there aren't people. Before I knew totally how he was, we ran into people off-leash, but with my other dog/friend's dog with him, he was fine.

This dog needs to be always on leash for the foreseeable future.



Please describe how you charged (loaded) your marker. That can at least get us into some verbs.

The clicker-trainer got me started, and I read some books. It was at first click-treat, click-treat, click-treat. Then we walked around the yard on the leash doing that, click-treat for focusing on me, ignoring him when he wasn't, me saying his name, click-treat for eye-contact. Stuff like that. She said to click at the exact moment he does the behavior, which I try to do.

How did you know it was loaded? How did you know he had a strong mental connex between the marker and the reward? Did you mark and see if he looked for the reward?




"Being bad" is a great term to lose. Growling at you for attention is something you didn't explain by saying "offering behaviors." You asked for and rewarded growling??

Was that a bad thing to do?

How did you reward for growling? Briefly, how did the growling happen, for you to mark and reward?



Please describe a past vet visit.

I'm going to make a timeline in another post, and I'll describe that in detail there.

Not necessary. Just: what happened? Did he try to bite or what? Did the vet staff muzzle him? Was the procedure (exam, whatever) eventually successful? (No timeline needed. )



What is his exercise? Please describe daily structured exercise.

In the morning, we do some training/playing inside (snow on the ground now; I walk the dogs and could train outside in the warmer months). I alternate some obedience with some tug of war and retrieving from one end of the house to the other, or up and down the steps. Just stuff like that, him and I interacting with me up on my feet and playing. Not really exercise, but interaction, and after a while of that, he will lie back down and I can get ready for work.

During the day, he and the other dogs are out in the garage or in the yard, going in and out the dog door. My 12 year old will play with him, but not as much as he'd like.

In the evening after work, I bring him inside, do some training like in the AM, do my inside exercise (lift weights) with him usually in the room and playing with one of his chew-toys, or sometimes outside if he wants to be, in the yard. He is much more awake and interested in things outside at night than in the morning. Then we go for a walk; I walk about two miles, but he probably runs a lot more. He and my other big dog stay with me well off-leash. He needs that running time, for sure; he just runs like crazy. On weekends, I take longer walks, several hours, and he gets very exhausted after those.

On a normal weekday, how many minutes or hours of structured exercise does he get (structured meaning fast-paced walks or continuous fetch, for example)?



On walks, what do you do when you approach someone who he looks at and becomes focused on?

As happens in discussion on many subjects, half the disagreements are semantics, I think. Have to define the words before you use them, and a lot of times you don't realize how tricky the definitions are, until you get into it.

Just use everyday words and try to avoid dog-trainer terminology like "dominant." Then everyone will understand and those 8 pages will have more than done their job.



In the timeline, I'll describe the one time we had visitors since I got him.

Not necessary. He growled/barked? For now, this dog needs to be put up when anyone comes into the house. Period. He does not need to be put into a stress-filled situation, and him being with visitors is in the future. Not now.



I forgot the question about what he does on walks. I'll describe that in the timeline, because it has changed over time. I think things are still in teh process of change, so I need to get them on the right track, before they settle down permanently into something I don't want.

No timeline needed. Does he lock his gaze on any person who looks unusual? Bark? What do YOU do?




.... he is really good with his basic commands, he focuses on me really well. Inside, he can tolerate the distraction of something say like me telling him to stay and then stepping a few feet away and feeding a cat some treats, stuff like that. He loves tug of war and will "give" on command. (I didn't know it was supposed to be "out".) I haven't tried much obedience training outside, except for recall.

Besides stay, what basic ob commands does he have? Not necessarily with duration or distraction .... what command do you have, if you have one, that is 100% reliable indoors?

Can you link us to a short video clip of a marker session? No big setup or anything - just a minute or two of what a marker session looks like.