Willie said;
"Seriously. THink long and hard about your answer. There is NO shame AT ALL in saying to yourself...."you know what....I love this breed, but this particular dog is not developing into the dog I want for my companion. I really would rather have a pet temperament type that I wont have to work so hard with. "


100% agree with this statement.
In addition to knowledge I think mental strength is needed to control this dog. By that I mean it's not something you want to go through a learning phase with. It's something you need from the get go.
IF you have had a few more strong dogs in the past 15 yrs since the Dobe, AND you had no children it may be something to learn with.
It makes me nervous when someone that is (no offense)not experienced with this sort of dog. Having kids jumps this in quantum leaps.
I don't disagree with grabbing the dog by the jowels but you have to be 100% confident in you abilities. I don't believe you can just do it because someone told you how. You have to know how, why and what to do about the consequences. That comes with experience and not just jumping in and hoping for the best.

Well I must start by saying that I am overwhelmed with all the replies this little post I put in a few days ago. I am more than gratefull for everyone wanting to help and sharing their dog experience with me. I must also thank Leerburg for making this possible with this website. Thank you all and especialy to you Willie that is willing to help me with Ziva. Your time is gold I know and wanting to share it with me is a God sent because Ziva is TOTALY worth it. She is not bad all the way through you know she has many qualities, I just need to know and learn how to deal with her colorfull personality.

So Willie the important question you asked me as been asked to myself over and over. You nailed it right on the head by saying that the thoughts of not getting the final results with her as I had it planned in my head when I got the puppy is totaly true. I either give up on those so called dreams and relationship or modify some of them. In moments of desperation due to my lack of knowledge on how to deal with her made me doubt the possibility to achieve a small purcentage of my goals with this dog. The only time I cried was not by frustration by not being able to accomplish something with Ziva but when the thought to let her go and returned to the breeder. So what kind of pet will she become? I know not seing the dog nor me you can't be sure on that one. But knowing that she is a hard dog....will we be able still to go places, have fun having her around? I know that she will not be able to be left alone with kids nor strangers (friends) maybe....Will she need to be in a constant structured and controled envionment? Can you tell me what you think and forsee about that?

This being said I know my habilities of getting what I want and going where I want to be. I proved it many times over the years overcoming challenges that many would say...."that is a battle I don't want to tackel". I am a persistant bitch myself and I have the love for all animals mostly for dogs and horses and an ability to comprehend their ways and modify my approach. I am an ongoing learner and a determined fighter. Like I said to my kids growing up and all athletes I worked with "The sky is the limit, is how you chose to get there that will make you proud and a good responsable individual. Don't stop dreaming cause the only deception is by not trying." (Sorry for the philosophy here, but I woke up less than one hour ago and the first thing I did is take the dog out, feed her and sit here reading all of the comments that went straight to my heart.

I will try to cover everything you are asking Willie I hope I won't miss anything if I do I either will come back to do so as I will read your message over and over but please feel free to ask again. AND I apologize in advance for the gramatical errors and typos in my message....I am French lol.

Let me start with; I do avoid all confrontation with Ziva for the past few days. I am trying to stay as cool as a cucumber and even by being firm I don't persist I always give her the choice to comply though before myself acting upon it. But I do not persist for her to comply other then the basic commands sit, laydown, go to the carpet. As soon that she starts jumping and biting I must say that I take her calmly to her crate and she willingly goes in when I anticipate a confrontation situation. Like the neighbour's dog, our meal time where I have to constantly repeat "go to the carpet", or when she is showing plain stobborness. I also noticed that lately as soon as she smells my private parts she starts acting up. Am I making this up? However, it is with regret that she spends a lot of time in her crate lately. But I figure untill I will know how to deal with her there is no need to make things worst so so far that has been my way of handle things.

Equipment and tools: right now for walks (she is great on the leash for walks, she heels well with the few reminders no to get to far ahead of me, sits when I stop mostly automaticaly and had stoped pulling and reacting to dogs barking behind their fences) so for walks she wares a double layred flat chain Martingale. In the house from wakie time to bed time a flat nylon collar on a 10 feet steel line covered with rubber. BTW I thinks she hates that line. I have had episodes where she was acting up with the 10lb puffy white ball of a dog our neighbours have and redirected her frustation of the line on me. And I noticed that when I pick it up (not always) she bites it and THEN nipps and jump on me. I don't jerk it, I use it to have a hold of her and avoid to touch her directly....I don't know if I am being clear here. The other tool is the crate. She loves it, when she is calm she often goes in it herself to sleep with the door open. Which is actualy the case now as I type this novel.

As per your comments: PACK STRUCTURE: That is my puzzel right there and one of my most concern, is how to be her Alfa in a way that she will accept it? I believe once that is accomplished she will be a different dog and all of the other few problems will be easyer to deal with and be corrected. Am I right?

Even though she is mostly obedient I can see in her eyes that she doesn't respect me fully. That is a blow bellow the belt for me. Your are talking about "ancient" type. If I understand this correctly you are suggesting that she has the ancient breeding LGD genetics in her. I wrote the breeder asking how were her sibblings. Apparently from the news she has, they are not at all behaving like Ziva......BUT I remember seing pictures of them as litter mates and videos and Ziva was always on top of the pile when they were sleeping, she was the one bugging the others to play, she was often the one on top bitting the others. Now I look at it and I think she was the bully and the one probably getting to the mother first at feeding. HUM!!! We have met Ziva's mother and cousins and uncles and aunts (the breeder has 7 of them as family pets. They rotate them inside) Gentle dogs, jumping on people to greet them though, but I thought that was just a lack of education from the part of the owners.....different views of how a dog should be educated I guess. Not one growl from neither of them, playfull, great with kids.....like the 2 Kuvasz I have met in 1985 when I first met the breed and though back then "I want one of those". BTW I haven't met the father.

You are talking of a working home.....I need explaination on how to accomplish that task. Presently I am not working......for how long? I don't know but untill July for sure.

I think I should list the problems I have with Ziva so you get it clearly and from the horses' mouth so to speak.

1- Jumping and bitting; hands, thighs, belly and even when I turn my back to show no interest my butt. That happens when we (I) tell her "NO" and that she doesnt want to comply to stop what ever she was doing, or after shoving her nose between my legs....funny as it may sound....It started 1 month ago by bitting the air and showing teeth and came to actual bitting. And my 12y.o. step son.when she greets him I don't think aggression is the problem with the bitting with my step son only excitment like when she greets people jumping from excitment....at this point I either have her on the line in the sit position. When people come in I ask them not to pay attention to her.....when she is calm I let them come and say hi....OR I have her in the crate until the movement of new comers stop and that she is calm in her crate....let her out and usualy she smells them and lay down somewhere further from us.

2- Growling at whom ever even the cats that passes by when she eats. There is an hystory behind that that I think you need to know. When Ziva came at 8 weeks I started from day1 have her to sit and wait the "OK" word to get to the bowl. Of course she was little and the waiting period was 2 seconds maybe. Then, stupid of me I would sometime walk by and saying "YUMMY that is good" and pass my hand over her.....she would growl, and it escalated with the cats walking by, then with us just walking by to the point where she would take her nose out from the bowl and growl while looking in a 45° angle at us. All of that Willie within 3 weeks. I kept her bowl and her food on top of the fridge for easyer access back then and one day she blocked me from entering the kitchen by growling and nipping the air. Hum I though this is a problem that will become dangerous. So I called a so call behaviorist in our area and he suggested to take the food away when that happened.....well let me tell you I followed that advice only for 2 days.....she became stressed, tail tucked under, ears back, her body was ridgid and eating so damn fast......so first I took the bowl and food to the garage. So there was no need for her to take possesion of the area. That seemed to have solved that problem as she is no longer showing any signs of not wanting us in the kitchen anymore. Secondly she is no longer even allowed in the kitchen...we have put a imaginary line for her to obbey and she is pretty good now with that. But it is an ongoing reminding process but there is no resistance from her part. Then I put the bowl on the ground and left her eat it and not disturbing her not even a look. But the problem was still there....So I got in touch on skype with Val DeSantis from Colorado that has suggested a) never take the food away and b) to feed her me holding the bowl in both hands (build bond). I have been doing that for 4 weeks now.....and she is calm while eating, tail and ears relaxed, she takes her nose out of the bowl to chew or pick up what ever fell on the floor and occasionaly licks my hand when finished. This morning however, the cat walked by and so my husband and she growled and quickly finished......so I am thinking to feed her in the crate now. What are your thoughts on that?

3- Breaking the heeling position on walks to jump on pedestrians that we cross on our walks....she jumps and want attention.....I am trying the same method I used for the dogs barking behind their fences on that but it seems harder as these people are closer to us but it is better. I have been taking her everywhere until a few weeks ago. She loves people and other dogs (except this little dog next door) but her need to jump on them makes it very tireing for me she weighs more than 60lbs now and me 120lbs....But not taking her anywhere is not the solution.....I should expose her to people.....Obedience classes maybe? I am reluctant about that because after doing research the methode used mostly here is with a choker chain and old school.....I don't want to do that....and secondly me being out of work right now it is not possible for another few monts.....any thing in between I could do? Take my courage in both hands and take her out to town, struggle until she stop jumping and finaly enjoying the outings?.....I might have to do just that and forget that I look like a fool while struggeling with her and concentrate as it being part of the process.....hum.


I get it and understand it that more work needed here then anticipated.....but if I can make this a good dog and us having a good relationship I will do it.....I have seen to many dogs mistreated due to misunderstanding and lack of knowledge from the human part.....I don't want her to end up in a place where she will be totaly unhappy and ending up being misunderstood.....If I have the ability to ME make the change in how I handle this she will be happy and we will have fun right?...I wanted to do agility with her, will that be possible?.....I think and repeat myself here....once the pack ranking is established things will change.....correct me if I am wrong.

I will end this....anyway I have to go for a walk lol.....but let me say Willie that I will make my final decision after reading your reply.....But I mus admit that I am not settle with the idea to give up just yet. I have been looking for answers for the past 2 months when it all started as what many would have seen as puppy stuff.....but it is hard to find 1- people that are willing to help, 2- people that know the breed and 3- accepting the fact that I have no money to give back.

Please accept my most profound anticipated thanks with your help. You probably will change the future of this dog and my present with her.

Lots of huggies Willie
Solange

For what this is worth, Ziva has been a peach today. only twice she started her dance and wanting for reach to my hand and 2 "NO" sufficed for her to stop. Yesterday I think I scared her in the middle of a fued I moved a chair between us and I growled while making lots lots of noise with the chair and she ducked down going away like if the world was coming to an end. I don't know if my "NO" and the chair have a link in her head but today she was a PEACH!!! she complied to everything I asked without to much fuss too. Holy....At least so far it has been a good day and a welcomed rest for me. But the war is not over, I am well aware of it....but this battle as been won at the very least.

cheer

I own up to being more optimistic than pessimistic when it comes to working with dogs. Probably in no small measure the result of working with lost cause foster dogs. Anyway

I've taken a casual interest in learning about this breed, and its idiosyncrasies. Lots of stuff out there, I discovered, that shares experiences, good and bad, and suggests various approaches. Even You Tube has a bunch of stuff about the Kuvasz, and some of the documented demonstrations seem to show behaviors normally associated with conventionally trained dogs. That is not to say there are no issues.

So, cutting to the chase, and again owning up to being optimistic, it seems to me that the puppy has more positive stuff going on than negative. It uses a crate willingly, that is a plus. It works reasonably well on a leash on a walk. Seems to have adapted as well as many five month old puppies to immediate area basic commands.

Puppies nip, and some can bite with a bit too much enthusiasm. Puppies growl. Some dogs prefer to lead rather than follow. The purpose of training is to condition the dog, using the techniques that prove most effective given the personality of the dog. Some dogs need a whisper of wind and some dogs need a gale.

I get the dog has a heritage and perhaps even genetic predispositions to behave in certain ways. I get it.

Its just that I think most dogs are trainable with time and patience, and behavior can be conditioned with consistent effort. I am the optimist.

Put another way, we've all participated and contributed to threads that have dealt with far worse issues than described in this one. And, not all but many of the outcomes were good, I'd like to think, given an owner open to advice and equipped with a purposeful attitude.

In my uninformed opinion, this puppy will be a success story. I believe this because I believe the owner has the stuff to train the dog. And because I believe the puppy is trainable.

And I've been bitten by some of the most initially miserable foster dogs that turned into wonderful pets.

Just two cents.

thanks Mike, this message is definitaly a boost.....Thanks again from Ziva and I.

 Quote:

So what kind of pet will she become? I know not seing the dog nor me you can't be sure on that one. But knowing that she is a hard dog....will we be able still to go places, have fun having her around? I know that she will not be able to be left alone with kids nor strangers (friends) maybe....Will she need to be in a constant structured and controled envionment? Can you tell me what you think and forsee about that?

That is a really hard one to address. Most any dog can be worked with....It's usually the owners that have the problems. She will have to have a structured and controlled environment her whole life. All dogs do. How much structure and control of the environment depends and there is no way to tell at this point.
She isn't doing anything awful just normal for the breed and for a dominant bitch.
These guys are like most dogs and difficult to deal with in the puppy phase. It will get much more challenging before it gets better with the worst being between the ages of 9-15 months.

Working home refers to the fact the dog will need a daily job. not to your work status.

1. Jumping and biting is normal developmental behavior for all dogs. Particularly for a guardian breed as they have to practice their protection and combat skills. It is for the moment "prey drive" and with this dog a natural and STRONG drive to dominate the pack.
We will provide appropriate activities later for her to release this natural drive. It is there...it always be. We just have to teach her how she is allowed to express it and that towards people is not allowed. But that will be later.
We will make her earn the right to play and train and everything else. She will not be allowed near the 12 year old stepson or other visitors for now. Problem avoided.
Are there any other children in your home that visit or live with you?

2. LSGD need to be food aggressive. I can't tell you how hard it is to feed the dogs on a farm and have them give up their meals to the cat, other dogs, goats, chickens or whatever. They are expected to defend their food from all comers. The ones who don't are almost useless. They have to be fed separately and often only get one meal a day as it is a major pain to shut them up away to eat. Aggression is not tolerated toward people though.
In a pet situation the dog needs to be taught that they Don't have to fight to defend their food. As you already know your earlier actions only taught her that she was right in thinking that food must be defended. Her stress level shows that she does accept you as leader in that she didn't attack you outright when you were messing with her food.
As far as the situation now......It is just her instincts surfacing again. It will be an ongoing issue for a while. When we transitioned our dogs from life on the farm to house life it didn't go well. We tried many methods....including feeding them in the crates which in this situation I DONT recommend. It ended with the dogs escalating and guarding the crates at all times. What worked for us and what I will recommend for you is to teach her that she does not need to worry any more about food or fairness.
What you did after talking to the person in Colorado is great. Have your husband do this method. YOu continue to do it as well for a week or two. Lock the cat up when you feed her. Don't let the cat near her while she eats. It will just complicate things and show the dog she is justified in her worry as you can't control the cat and it's eating and taunting......it's a cat and trainable but we will approach that later. So much can be helped and sped up by controlling the environment.
3. For the next two weeks can you walk her somewhere away from distractions and people? What do you know about prong collars? Read Ed's info on them. I want to Skype or FAceTime with you about that subject.
NO public obedience classes for now. I'm not a fan of those.

I recommend coming at this dog indirectly. They are bred to do their thing and if you meet them head on they tend to hunker down and do what they think is the best thing to do. Harsh corrections and confrontation will usually do one of two things....cause them to come up the leash at you or have them shut down and keep doing what they think they should.

I Would have you enter her into "boot camp"
Do you have ED's video on pack structure and have you read the articles?
I want you to have her be in her crate unless you are walking her....(3-4 45 min walks a day), Have her out on a leash going potty, or are hand feeding her. No play time no petting, nothing. just potty with no playing, just eating with no playing, and just marching/migrating at heel for the walks...with no playing. You have to keep her tired for this to be humane. she will sleep most of the time in the crate.
This shows the dog that you are in absolute control of it and it's environment without confronting her head on. It usually takes between 1-3 weeks to get through to them.
Then they earn new privileges. Training is a privilege. This method works really well and I have saved many dogs using it.
I will cover how to handle the misbehaviors on walks via skype after I have seen you working with her. Much depends on wether or not she will come up the leash at you if you use the prong collar.

I sen't you a friend request on Facebook as well. She is super cute I might add.

Spot on Mike........Spot on. I totally agree with your points. Totally.
Thank you for stating them. I am task oriented and was trying to get to her questions.

 Quote: Connie Sutherland

Disclaimer: I'm not a LGD expert at all.


But I do differentiate (quite a bit) between herders and LGDs.

Just throwing it out there.

BINGO in SPADES, Connie !!! Thanks to many long centuries of human-selected temperament traits, extremely aloof/independent Livestock Guardian Breeds come from an entirely different planet in their outlook & motivation than the typically more handler oriented/responsive Herders -- IMHO, canine genetic hardwiring takes a lot longer than just a few decades to morph from "leave me alone in my world" to "whatever you say in your world" ... Although this is a generality, of course, it remains generally TRUE.

Ok Willie.....I will do it....It is 10h30 p.m. here so tomorrow it all starts....

I knew that the working home was for the dog LOL....I was wondering how to make that kind of working environment for her....I was just saying that I have time now because I am not working and won't be until July or August and maybe even later than that because the economy is so bad here in France for the moment....cute!!

My step son is here every second weekend, and I will explain the situation....no problem. No there are no children with us. As for visitors it doesn't happen often, I don't see any coming in the next few weeks so that will not be a problem either.

I was the only one feeding her as per the suggestion from Mr. DeSantis but now I will have my husband to participate as well. The cat will be locked in a room for sure.

I live in a very small village surrounded by fields. On our walk we meet very few people. Most of the time nobody But there are 4 dogs on our path.....she barely minds them now....she went from pulling to get at them to just looking now knowing that if there is no correction a treat is comming. I was walking that 45 min circuit twice a day but will add 1 or 2 more.

I get what you are saying in order to make it humane for her to be in the crate for so much she needs to be tired and sleep and not feel cooped up.

Ok for not petting, no obedience sessions, no playing, only walks, potty on a leash, feeding.

No I never worked with a prong collar....my concern is that she doesn't react well to the line and turned on me once badly. And confrontation with her makes the adrenaline get higher....wouldn't the prong cause her to react even more? I guess we need to try.

I read the article about Groun Work to Establish Pack Structure with Adult Dogs and the one Puppies (Groun work with puppies) ....I did not get any video yet for 2 reasons, 1- no money until next month (2 weeks) secondly I was not sure exactly which one to get....So are you refering to the one about adult dogs or puppies?

When you say that you will schedule a skype session with me after seeing me working with her....I am not sure I understand that....you meen after I do a few weeks of the work you set out for me or you want me to film some of it?

Do I need to get a prong collar or should I wait a bit after that we talk? Mr. DeSantis had suggested a prong as well but I feared the same as I told you earlier to just provoke her.

I am totaly motivated.....and my heart feels so much lighter....everything you described so far makes sense and look doable..... I don't know if you read in a previous post, we had a very good day today. she started to bite twice and stoped after the second "NO"....Well Willie I am excited to start on a new and fresh beginning. I thank you, thank you very very much.

And yes she is a cutie!! lol

Solange

Lets skype first. I'll send you the contact info via FaceBook.
Describe what you have doe that has worked to reduce her reactivity to the dogs on the walk.