Willie thank you. Yes I understand what you are saying. And yes I do listen to thoughtful advice that is well intentioned and not overly judgemental.

You have clearly outlined the steps and I do understand them. I will make adjustments and convert the second bedroom into the Anatolian's crate room. I have always crate trained all my dogs, but lost faith in it this time because I have never seen a dog freak out for hours and then BREAK out of a crate like that before. I have replaced the bolts with zip ties and it has held him since then bit I have been uneasy about it.

I will keep the dogs completely separated. I will also start walking them on a leash and maintaining control. I know I can't withhold all affection or attention for weeks though, that is just not possible, but I can make them work for it.

The Aussie has been an easy dog his whole life, agreeable and never troublesome, never destructive or aggressive, which is why I have never really pressured him to submit. He will submit easily though.

The Anatolian is obviously bonding and becoming somewhat of a big softy (when he isn't threatening to kill of course). He is following my instructions just so he can hear he is a "good boy" and get praised, he is also becoming a lot lickier. That may not seem like a big deal but I compare all dogs to Dobermans, and honestly most of my Dobies saw praise as "Wow..glad you are happy, but what am I getting out of this? Food?"

My last Doberman was pack leader and I always knew it. He was sane, calm, loving to pack members, and it worked out just fine. This time it is different, their are rather serious rivalry issues, and honestly I am surprised the Anatolian is slowly but surely (?) showing signs of submission towards me. He is physically and mentally stronger, he sees things in black and white, strength and weakness.

This dog can clearly see my weaknesses, why is he starting to show what I perceive to be submissive behavior? Perhaps that is part of the Anatolian genetically hard wired instinct; i.e. the human may be incompetent but if they keep pushing let them think they are winning for the time being.

 Quote: barbara schuler

My question: - Since this large "flock protective" dog has now been brought into a home environment and we can assume he is bonding with his owner, has she now becoming his "flock" and has the aussie become the prey from which he must defend her?

No, he isn't defending me from the Aussie. He has a personal issue to settle with the Aussie at this point.

He is homeland security, he specializes in identifying unusual situations that could pose a real threat. His latest concern was jet fighters from Warner Robbins flying over the house. He thinks nothing of cars/trucks driving by the house all day, but when a golf cart came by for the first time he freaked, a golf cart was different and different can mean potentially dangerous.

Anatolians have very distinctive barks that cleary define a threat vs. "oh look the UPS guy is here" or "hey dog, wanna fight?" I believe their various barks communicate info to the flocks, the flocks reportedly will cluster behind the dog if the bark and posturing reflect a serious, deadly concern.

 Quote: sonya anderson

What is your expertise? Have you dealt with similar situations before? Have you trained dozens or hundreds of dogs? Have you handled extremely dominant dogs with canine aggression issues before? Or are you just offering off the cuff advice to the "newbie" on an internet forum?

Well.....I'm a nationally recognized trainer of serious PPDs with almost 40 years of dog training experience, and yes, I've trained hundreds of dogs and dealt with extreme canine aggression cases.

But....I'm not going to waste my time giving advice to someone who is just "shopping" for the type of advice that they *want* to hear......and throw around insults, to boot.

 Quote: will rambeau

But....I'm not going to waste my time giving advice to someone who is just "shopping" for the type of advice that they *want* to hear......and throw around insults, to boot.

Yes Will, you are right, if the advice is "get rid of the dog" I don't want to hear it. Thanks for contributing to the thread.

I am glad to hear that you are willing to make some changes.

I am concerned that you seem to lack basic understanding of dog behavior,and have seriously romanticized this LSGD thing. You show a serious lack of knowledge of the thought processes that a dog goes through.
I commend you for sticking around and listening though.

What about buying Ed's videos?
They are an absolute must for you. He can teach you what you need to know about this situation.

I have some concerns about some of the things you said:

 Quote:

The Aussie has been an easy dog his whole life, agreeable and never troublesome, never destructive or aggressive, which is why I have never really pressured him to submit. He will submit easily though

This is not a true statement, based on the fact that you can't control him and his behavior toward the Anatolian.
If you have ever seen Cesar Millan's late pit bull Daddy around an aggressive dog, that is a example of calm submission.
Another is my 10 year old daughter and her 8 month old intact male mini Dachshund. The dog is in his teenage phase, and is super super high drive.
She had him out yesterday and he was acting aggressive toward the Pyrs out in the field. I was really proud of her, with out direction from me, she tried a verbal redirect, it didn't work, and so she gave a leash correction with his mini prong. He redirected focus to her face, but then locked back on the Pyr. So she gave a verbal correction and stepped into his space, causing him to move away, and claiming for herself the "territory" he was claiming for his own. Being a hard little terrier type, he refocused on the Pyr. She calmly gave another leash correction and stepped tight into him. He maintained his heel position moved away and refocused on her. Each time he redirected he brought his drive down. She calmly did this 5 times, each time with greater success. on the final time, I told her that was good enough, and to heel him away from the field and go play with him in the side yard.
He was submissive to her and in control. Yes, he was refocusing on the Pyr, but he is young, and every time she corrected him he came down in drive and refocused on her. He only barked once, and was not lunging on the leash, but in heel position the whole time.
I know from experience that this little dog can really fast go into the zone and be lunging and barking at the end of the leash if you aren't paying attention.
Her success was due to all the hard work following Ed's videos, and her paying attention to the dog and doing what she needed to do.
Fast forward 30 min. She had her pup out in the field by the pond playing with him. The neighbors had their two mini Dachshunds out with them. both are really barky and one was running up and down the field fence snarling and barking at the pup an my daughter. Her pup started to sound off and go to the end of the leash barking and responding to the other dogs.
She was right on it, and corrected him, brought down his drive, and stayed on it for the remaining hour she was out there. The whole time the other dog was running the fence and screaming.
Her pup was standing there sniffing in the direction of the other dog, but, also looking to my daughter for his direction. My daughter...his true pack leader....said the threat wasn't his problem, but hers, and he was CALM SUBMISSIVE, and trusting her that she had it under control. My 10 yr old daughter and a fairly hard drivey pup. Trust me, he isn't easy. (Disclaimer...I don't think your average 10 yr old kid is suitable for this sort of thing, and she is always under supervision.)
That is submission, the ability to control your animal and have it look to you for it's expected behavior, and then listen to what you want even though that isn't what the dog wants to do.
From your posts, neither the Anatolian or the Aussie displays this.


If the dog is freaking for hours in the crate, then you need to work on the crate training. Ed goes into this in detail in his video.

 Quote:

He is homeland security, he specializes in identifying unusual situations that could pose a real threat. His latest concern was jet fighters from Warner Robbins flying over the house. He thinks nothing of cars/trucks driving by the house all day, but when a golf cart came by for the first time he freaked, a golf cart was different and different can mean potentially dangerous.

This dog is too young to "work" LSGDs don't mature enough to "work" until they are 2 years minimum.
What this dog is showing by his reactions is an unstable, insecure reaction to unknown stimuli. He doesn't feel that his leader will protect him, (you haven't been able to from the Aussie in his mind) And so he is running about in an unhealthy state of mind.

 Quote:

I will keep the dogs completely separated. I will also start walking them on a leash and maintaining control. I know I can't withhold all affection or attention for weeks though, that is just not possible, but I can make them work for it.

Before you try this method, you need to order the video and watch it. What you are describing here may not be what you need to do, but you wont know what you need to do unless you order the video and watch/study it.
You need to be aloof in the beginning, they can't even earn affection at first. Its a great system, BUT YOU NEED THE VIDEO!



I am willing to try to help you for these dog's sakes.
I must say though, that I firmly believe that you need to put the needs of this dog over your own. This dog is in an unsuitable environment with and inexperienced owner.
I think its cruel to have taken this happy fulfilled working dog away from his flock and alpha, and put him in the current unbalanced pack situation.
Even though you have bonded with him, he can go back to what he was made to do.
Trust me, he would be happier and more fulfilled where he was, than in any home/pet situation.

Case in point.
My 10 year old daughter has a perfect llama. It is trained and beautiful. She loves this llama dearly.
She also has this dachshund pup. It has turned out to be not so much pet temperament, but a true working high drive dog.
In order to provide the environment that the dog needs, she has to spend most of her free time with the pup training it. she is going to show it and do some sort of working competition with it whether that be earth dog, agility or what have you.
She hasn't been out to do anything with the llama for months.
She is selling the llama this weekend to another family that has kids and will pay attention to the llama, and provide the care that she can't at the moment.
I am incredibly proud of her for putting this animal's best interest before her own desires, despite the fact that her heart will be hurting for a while.
I beg you to do the same.
With all respect
Willie

P.S. you could have learned more from Will and Connie than you could ever have learned from me.

 Quote: willie tilton

This dog is in an unsuitable environment with and inexperienced owner.
I think its cruel to have taken this happy fulfilled working dog away from his flock and alpha, and put him in the current unbalanced pack situation.
Even though you have bonded with him, he can go back to what he was made to do.
Trust me, he would be happier and more fulfilled where he was, than in any home/pet situation.

Sonya, please make sure that you focus on what Willie has said right up there. This is a time bomb situation that is going to go off with horrible circumstances either to yourself or to your other dogs. How many times do you hear "he was a GREAT dog and had NEVER bitten anyone before" Too many times as far as Im concerned. And i have to say I was shocked when I saw this in one of your posts:

 Quote: Sonya

I really thought they were making progress and then I did something really stupid. I gave them all bones (yes stupid, I know). The aussie tried to claim the anatolians bone from the outside of the pen and they started to fence fight.

Sorry but that right there just blows my mind and says to me that you are not going to get this situation sorted out anytime soon. And saying sorry doesn't change the fact that you would even think for one second that giving bones would be an alright thing to do with the problems you are having!

But good luck..... I hope for your dogs sake that you get enlightened and realize that you've bitten off way more than you can chew and put your own needs before your dogs. They are giving crystal clear signals that it's not going to work, but you're ignoring them because YOU want this to work, and that seems to be all that your concerned with. You wanted a macho dog, well now you've got one.

And this quote from Willie is also a good read.

 Quote: willie

P.S. you could have learned more from Will and Connie than you could ever have learned from me.

Just because someone isn't telling you what you want to hear doesn't mean they lack credentials

 Quote:

I wanted to ask earlier, but is sounded so simplistic in regard to how complicated the situation is...

My question: - Since this large "flock protective" dog has now been brought into a home environment and we can assume he is bonding with his owner, has she now becoming his "flock" and has the aussie become the predator (ausie is a predator ) from which he must defend her?

Does this question make any sense?

That part of it alright! Good going!!! ;\) \
Most LSGDs hate herding types. Ones that have had experience working, and just instinctualy......like a JRT hunts mice.
Herding breeds act predatory. LSGDs kill predators.
you are right.
\:\)
Willie

I don't have any firsthand experience with LSGDs but I do have a dog aggressive dog and two that want to kill each other.

Am I reading this correctly that you are containing a giant Anatolian Shephard in an X-pen, when there is a danger he might attack your other dogs?

I have two males that will fight, and I have to keep them separated at all times and rotate them. I am more than happy to explain our routine and the measures we have taken to ensure their safety if you are interested.

You also said that you don't trust him outside, can you make a smaller more secure yard for him, or run either hotwire or in ground fencing to keep him in?

What kind of exercise is this dog getting? A tired, relaxed, well worked dog has less pent up energy and less frustration and is less likely to instigate a fight.

I really do appreciate all the advice I have been given. I have done a lot of thinking about this situation and I fully realize I do not have what it takes to be pack leader (I don’t even want pack leader). I am not an obedience person, I suck at it and I just don’t have the mindset for it.

Realistically I have two options, return the dog or commit to keeping them separated for life. I can’t integrate these dogs and it is stupid to try, because I was blessed in the past with strong dogs that were tolerant of one another I made the mistake of choosing a year old dog instead of a puppy.

The foundation of my dog knowledge came from showing Dobermans. The truly experienced Doberman show people and breeders typically have multiple dog households (not kennel runs but dogs living together in the house/yard) and they take a whole different approach to canine aggression. Two adult males never cross paths, it is expected they will fight on site. If two bitches get into a real fight twice (or sometimes just once) the dogs are permanently separated. Period. The humans don’t attempt to take control of the canine pack, they don’t try to dominate the dogs and force them to get along (in reality most all of those households have canine pack leaders, the dogs are expected to behave civilly with humans and follow household rules, but the alpha dogs rule the canine pack).

I need to commit to permanent separation. I need to crate train the Anatolian, restructure the house and have them live completely separate lives. Fortunately I do work from home so it isn’t like the dogs will be crated all day with only a few hours of family time split between the two at night.

I am not happy about it, for years I had a divided house when two male Dobes, I didn’t want to do that again but obviously I made a bad judgement call by choosing an older dog and that is the only viable solution if I want to keep him. The Anatolian is a great dog and our relationship is good, if work with him (and yes train him) I do believe he will be the perfect companion dog for me (he is already really darn good). But I need to choose my battles, I need to maintain a calm and steady mindset and work patiently with the Anatolian to inspire trust, and having him see me freak out over canine aggression issues will only weaken our relationship.

Yes you guys were a bit rough, and while this is probably not the solution most were hoping for I do appreciate all the feedback (yes all of it) in hindsight. It made me think long and hard about the situation, as others have stated I am in over my head when it comes to trying to integrate these dogs, it ain’t gonna happen. I thought if I could step up to the plate and really really try, if I were a better person and a better dog owner, I would be able to, but I need to deal with reality.

For those that think I am “abusing” the Anatolian by keeping him as a house dog when he would really be happier guarding sheep, everything I have read about these dogs says that is absolutely not the case. The main rule is NEVER acclimate a working LSGD to the house, they will always choose the people/house over the flock because the people are more interesting. If they really preferred the fields and sheep that rule wouldn’t exist. In addition their ancestors have always been equally divided between the field and the house, historically the Anatolian bitches stayed with the herdsman’s family guarding the house (a necessity, as having females come into heat in the fields while they are guarding flocks alone for 6 months at a time would cause utter chaos).

Anyways, thanks again for all the comments and advice, especially Willie. It is much appreciated and really got me thinking.

I am quite impressed by your mature response and admitting to your limitations. Thanks you.

 Quote:

For those that think I am “abusing” the Anatolian by keeping him as a house dog when he would really be happier guarding sheep, everything I have read about these dogs says that is absolutely not the case. The main rule is NEVER acclimate a working LSGD to the house, they will always choose the people/house over the flock because the people are more interesting. If they really preferred the fields and sheep that rule wouldn’t exist. In addition their ancestors have always been equally divided between the field and the house, historically the Anatolian bitches stayed with the herdsman’s family guarding the house (a necessity, as having females come into heat in the fields while they are guarding flocks alone for 6 months at a time would cause utter chaos).

This is absolutely NOT a true statement...You have read....I have experienced. Big difference. Huge.
First, now a days they do leave the intact bitches out with the flocks, she has her puppies out there and raises them with the flock, and then the farmer sells off trained/started dogs.

Second your dog can easily go back to guarding sheep, and be much happier. You do not have the experience to see it, but he is screaming by his actions that he is unhappy.

I think that someone with your heart would do a much better service to the canine world by returning this dog and working on finding homes for the puppies you have rescued.
Once you do that, I think you would be great at rescuing and placing soft calm dogs that your Aussie can live in peace with.

I plead with you to think about this.
Willie
Ps, GET THE VIDEOS!