Quote: anne jones

Ross, as an afterthought...

You mentioned that you live up in a 4th floor walk up appartment...I would not want to be walking that pup up 4 flights of steps numerous time a day. Frankly, I wouldn't want to even do it once. But that's just me. I, persoanlly, am very careful with overexercise & pups. I would seriously be concerned about his hips doing that. I would carry him.

I was very worried about this. I asked about it in a thread called "Too much exercise?"

The impression I got from the answers was that if he is able to climb the stairs without bunny-hopping using both rear legs in tandem, I should let him do so. I've done so, but somewhat reluctantly.

When would you recommend allowing him to ascend/descend stairs on his own?

I don't own mals, but historically, they don't have the HD & pano problemns that can plague some lines of GSDs at least not yet. I suspect that as their popularity increases, this may become an issue. But the growth plates close at around 2 years old on GSDs. I am very carful not to over exercise a young dog. I have some steps up into my house but I was still careful about picking up the pup when they were young after several trips up. I do think that 4 flights up multiple times is a bit much& would eventually take a toll on a young dogs body. I personally would allow some up the steps up & down, just as practice for the pup & then carry him the rest, at least until he is too heavy to carry.

I have a jog a dog tresmill & won't put a dog on it until they are 2 & even then only at a walk & a few months later at a slow trot. But then I always tend to err on the side of being very conservative, as some of my friends that know me well & have trained with me will tell you. But that's just me.

ETA..I also don't jump young dogs. You can do all the ground work with cavaletti type gymnastics, like we do with horses, to teach them the proper form & how to rock back on their hocks to set up for a jump, without actually jumping more then 6 inches. You can add the jumps themselves later when the skelletal system is no longer growning.

Since your case (4 flights of steps) is a bit out of the ordinary & somewhat extreme, maybe a call or if need be a visit to an orthopaedic vet would be time & money well spent, as they should be able to give you more accurate info pertaining to you particular dog.

Maybe Konnie will see this & comment, but I know that she is usually training all day on Saturday & Sunday. Maybe Kadi will comment if she is around tonight, as they both have raised a number of mal pups & have some now.

BTW...glad that you decided to stick around for you & the pups sake.

 Quote: Anne Jones

.... Since your case (4 flights of steps) is a bit out of the ordinary & somewhat extreme .... Maybe Konnie will see this & comment .... Maybe Kadi will comment if she is around tonight, as they both have raised a number of mal pups & have some now. ....

And/or Cindy or Ed ....

 Quote: Connie Sutherland

 Quote: Anne Jones

.... Since your case (4 flights of steps) is a bit out of the ordinary & somewhat extreme .... Maybe Konnie will see this & comment .... Maybe Kadi will comment if she is around tonight, as they both have raised a number of mal pups & have some now. ....

And/or Cindy or Ed ....

I didn't mention them, as they don't seem to post to often, but I suspect that they do check in & may comment.

 Quote: anne jones

I don't own mals, but historically, they don't have the HD & pano problemns that can plague some lines of GSDs at least not yet. I suspect that as their popularity increases, this may become an issue. But the growth plates close at around 2 years old on GSDs. I am very carful not to over exercise a young dog. I have some steps up into my house but I was still careful about picking up the pup when they were young after several trips up. I do think that 4 flights up multiple times is a bit much& would eventually take a toll on a young dogs body. I personally would allow some up the steps up & down, just as practice for the pup & then carry him the rest, at least until he is too heavy to carry.

I have a jog a dog tresmill & won't put a dog on it until they are 2 & even then only at a walk & a few months later at a slow trot. But then I always tend to err on the side of being very conservative, as some of my friends that know me well & have trained with me will tell you. But that's just me.

ETA..I also don't jump young dogs. You can do all the ground work with cavaletti type gymnastics, like we do with horses, to teach them the proper form & how to rock back on their hocks to set up for a jump, without actually jumping more then 6 inches. You can add the jumps themselves later when the skelletal system is no longer growning.

Since your case (4 flights of steps) is a bit out of the ordinary & somewhat extreme, maybe a call or if need be a visit to an orthopaedic vet would be time & money well spent, as they should be able to give you more accurate info pertaining to you particular dog.

Maybe Konnie will see this & comment, but I know that she is usually training all day on Saturday & Sunday. Maybe Kadi will comment if she is around tonight, as they both have raised a number of mal pups & have some now.

BTW...glad that you decided to stick around for you & the pups sake.

It's a tough balancing act. In the beginning I gave him as little exercise as possible, erring on the side of not being too rough on his joints/pads/etc.

But now, as his energy level has gone through the roof, it's nearly impossible to give him the kind of exhausting exercise that will allow him to be calm and balanced without taking what I consider to be fairly large risks.

On the one hand you have, "Malinois puppies need lots of exercise" and on the other you have "Puppies in general are fragile so be careful."

He jumps, sprints (can now keep up with me, a fairly decent athlete), smashes into things, and hits the tug so hard his mouth bleeds.

Where is the line? I'm already trying to ensure that he doesn't run on pavement (which he disregards as soon as he sees a pebble or leaf), jump for the tug, or jump off of anything, even a curb.

So how do I make sure that he is getting all his willies out, safely?

 Quote: michael_wise

...

Perhaps you really should find that "ignore" button, as I can't see how my posts have any value to you. Randy, please do the same. I wish I could reciprocate, but the fact is that both of you post meaningful info in other threads. However, thank you both for proving my point about bandwagons better than I ever could. If your principal motivation is to help the dog, rather than to make a pariah out of someone, then a PM will get the point across much better, on so many different levels.

Mental, mental, mental. Mental exercise, marker training, working for food will go a long ways in tiring out a young high energy dog.

If you feed kibble, instead of just feeding him, make him work for it and reward him piece by piece. He'll love the work, and it will tire him out. Since he is still a youngster I'd break it up into 5 minute sessions.

Play with him. He’s a baby, everything in the world is exciting to him. I love this age. Go to a park, sit down with him, show him a leaf and how if flows through the air. Take him for a walk on a gravel road. He’s a baby malinois, not a porcelain china doll. You are his leader, he needs to be exposed to things, of course being mindful that they feel and sense things through their mouth/tongue at this stage.

My boys are out, away from our home, for at least 3 hours every day. And I say “at least” because it’s generally four or five hours if not all day. Both my husband and I work full time and we have a long commute, 45 minutes (maybe not long for some). Our home routine focuses on the boys, not us. You make a lot of sacrifices and drag yourself around half dead sometimes. You have a wife and one dog. Teamwork is an incredible thing.

Carry him down the stairs and walk him till he’s tired. If he still has energy and you can’t go any longer, time for the wife to kick in. Late nights and early mornings, but I’ve always said sleep is overrated. Put him to bed good and tired. Instead of waking up at 2, 3 and 4 am - when he wakes up at 2, you’re out anyway, take him for a nice calm walk. Spend the hour, he’ll sleep and so will you for the rest of the night.

I never go to bed until my boys are all contently sleeping. They have needs and I make sure they are all met, everyday – exercise (training), learning (training), companionship (training), meals (training) and their water is not limited. WE also require each one of these things in our daily lives - we simply choose activities, routines and friends that are canine friendly and can be incorporated in all aspects of our life that include the pups.

You haven’t had a dog in 10 years. You chose to bring this little guy into your life. Your life now needs to change to meet his needs.

Oh and it sounds like you have internet forums all figured out. This is the only one I am an active member in, so I don’t know what goes on out there, but like Randy, Michael and Steve have all told you, it simply doesn’t work the way you described here. The only things I’ve ever seen get jumped on are disrespect, arrogance and actions that are detrimental to the welfare of a dog.

As with the lifestyle changes you need to make for your pup, I think once you’re truly able to put his needs over yours, you’ll find it quite a humbling experience and the people here, a wealth of information to help you along the way. It would be a shame to hit the ignore button too quickly.

Keep him on a leash or longline to control him. He can't jump if he is being limited in his movement.

Like Mara said..mental work. Teach him to track. Teach him find it games. Take him places that will stimulate his brain & see new things. Take him to play grounds & let him play on the equipment a bit, take him to the beach for short walk on the sand & and play a bit in the water (don't know where you live). Make a flirt pole & play with him a bit. The key is variety of stimulation, short periods of marker training (5 min each,multiple times a day) & limitations on crazy runing around. High drive dogs don't usually stop because they are tired. They will litterly go until they drop. Not the scenario you are wanting.

The older the dog, the more exercise & mental stimulation he will require to be a mentally healthy & happy & physically healthly dog.

If he is teething, I wouldn't play tug with him. You don't want him equating playing with the tug with discomfort & pain, even if you have a hard tempermented dog.

I would not exercise him to exhaustion...that's when injuries happen. Just to the point of being tired. You can't make up at night or on the weekends for all the total exercise that he should have had during the day or week. It needs to be spread out daily with multiple outings.

Have you addressed the issue of getting him out during the work day & some water yet?

ETA...with young pups, I would stay up until around 1am & then take them out & then go to bed & they would usually be good to go unitl about 5-6 am. And I would usually be up by then anyway.

I'm very sorry you don't like how I say what needs to be said Ross. Tough noogies.
You've been told in mumerous ways the very same thing about what needs to be done with the dog.
And you, knew or at least suspected from the very beginning of this thread what the answer would be to your quarries. So no boohooing about being dumped on and pointing a finger around screaming about some imagined mob mentality.
quote;
"I'd love to find a simple answer, like "You're giving him too much water. But I'm afraid it's more complex than that." end quote.
Time to man up Ross.

 Quote: ross rapoport

But now, as his energy level has gone through the roof, it's nearly impossible to give him the kind of exhausting exercise that will allow him to be calm and balanced without taking what I consider to be fairly large risks.

Risks? What do you consider to be "fairly large risks?"

 Quote:

On the one hand you have, "Malinois puppies need lots of exercise" and on the other you have "Puppies in general are fragile so be careful."

I don't consider Mal pups to be fragile. Not sure if I'm in the minority, but I let my Mal pups be Mal pups. They will do what you've described....

 Quote:

He jumps, sprints (can now keep up with me, a fairly decent athlete), smashes into things, and hits the tug so hard his mouth bleeds.

To me, this is normal Mal pup behavior and I don't take particular steps to prevent it.

 Quote:

Where is the line? I'm already trying to ensure that he doesn't run on pavement (which he disregards as soon as he sees a pebble or leaf), jump for the tug, or jump off of anything, even a curb.

So how do I make sure that he is getting all his willies out, safely?

When I have pups the same age as yours, I hike with them a lot and also walk them through town/busy areas frequently. If they are off-leash while hiking (and I've already taught a decent recall and we're in an area where we won't run into other people/dogs/horses), I let them do what they are going to do - run, jump, faceplant off rocks, etc.

I spend time marker training for obedience behaviors and I'll start their basic agility training (walking low planks, climbing a wooden pallet - to simulate a ladder - up to a low plank, going through tunnels, etc.). I start their direction and control training (a USAR skill they need to know) with low platforms.

I also shape their "ball drive" (I know, not a "real" drive) and teach them hunt games with a ball. I expose them to every different surface, person, environment I can think of, always with treats in my pocket to use when needed. I take them to USAR training and walk with them on the rubble, and I take them to French Ring training for a bit of drive/bite shaping.

And that's the short list! For me, this is an age for exploration, growth of mind/drives, and learning my communication system and the basics for the future.

As far as exercise goes, the only thing I avoid is forced, repetitive action on hard surfaces (I won't jog with a pup on the road), and repetitive jumping off high places (such as out of my truck). They do fall (and faceplant off rocks as I mentioned earlier) and crash into things, but that's part of learning for them too.

Of course, I do take steps to keep them safe from serious injury (like not letting them jump off the 6' high portion of my deck), but I'd rather have them learn now what actions might hurt them, and to get control of their bodies, than wait until they are adults to have them crashing into things or leaping around and getting seriously hurt. And honestly, some Mals are going to do that regardless. High drive, confident Mals are usually brutal to their bodies regardless of what we try to do to prevent them from doing crazy things. And honestly, I think a properly bred Mal should have a body that holds up to that type of incidental (or incidental for a Mal anyways) abuse. Mals that are oversized or have long backs may need to be treated differently.

And all of this is JMO/E - other people may have other experiences/ideas.

Ross - I can't remember if you mentioned it before - what are your plans for this dog? Hiking companion? Sport?

Edited by Konnie Hein (10/17/2010 07:54 PM)
Edit reason: added more words to an already lengthy post