Connie and Lori,
Hope you do not mind me addressing your comments in one post. Not sure if this is the correct way to do it.
Anyway,
Frazier has had only a couple of ear infections in his 3 yrs. So not so much an issue.

Connie, you can say I told you so about the fleas. You certainly know a lot more than I do. But it seemed odd to me since I (or vet) have not found any fleas or signs of flea ever. But I do realize that they can jump on and off.

But I do think some other things are going on. This last time (around Christmas it started) that he became his worst ever, he had scabs and red sores on the rear of his back area and the area underneath on his belly. Lots of flaking and eventually his skin on the belly had lots of black spotting.

We kept treating him with Hydroixzine 50 mo 2 to 3 a day. (also tried Amitriplyline 50 mg 1 x 2 day. Did not help at all)
We used Cephalexin 2 x 2 day off and on. Then 4/5/12 a Vetalog Inj (cortisone I think) shot and that helped for about a month. So then, around the middle of May is whe I decided we really needed the Derm Vet because he was just getting really bad again. Also why I though the Atopica was needed at this point.

Question: Isn't the use of steriods and prednisone just as hard on a dog as the Atopica.? I'm hoping that soon we will start cutting back on the Atopica. The question will be where to go from there as far as treatment. I do not think an antihistamine will help enough. So that is why I question the use of steriods and prednisone. But I'm thinking My first shepherd in the 90's had really bad allergies and he was on prednisone all the time. I believe it shortened his life. He died at 9 with cancer. (Of course I didn't know the things I know now either. I really would like to start the shots. But need to find a med. that is gong to help in the mean time so he doesn't get this bad again.

Connie I agree with you on the histamine.

We have started doing the protocals called for such as rinse feet after walks, wiping down coat, took up throw rugs, not out during dawn and dusk. 3 walks a day on pavement and only on grass to do his business. 2 medicated baths a month and 2 flea treatments a month (advantix.) I hope we can go back to raw diet soon also.

I did post on salmon oil somewhere above. I'm using one from Only Natural Pet and it says a serving ( is 1 1\2 Teaspoon for a 50 lb plus dog ). 1350 Mgs. Hard for me to believe so I've been giving 4 teaspoons. Anyway I'll be going back to Grizzly salmon oil soon and I read where one girl was giving 3 times the amount for her dog due to allergies.
Instead of 4 pumps she is giving 10 pumps. Good idea ?

Frazier is getting his exercise as he gets 3 walks a day.

He is still itching a little but especially under the tail seems to be the hot spot. But he does have issues with his glands and it time for that to be taking care of. That is usually a once a month trip to vet.

We have used as mentioned above Hydroxyzine 50 mg 2 to 3 times a day.
Amitriplyline 50 mg 1 x 2 times a day. Did not help.
Diphenhydramine, this was a couple of years ago and really did not help. I do not remember how much he was getting.

I have started to write things down. Great idea.

His diet now is 3/4 lb chicken and hamburger cooked till further notice x 2 day .
1/2 teaspoon bone meal x 2 day.
2 teaspoons x 2 day salmon oil
Tablespoon pumpkin x 2 day
Tablespoon mixed veggies x 2 day
Vit E 400 x 1 day
Probiotic

Thinking of adding Vit C

I think Leerburg has an antifungal treatment. Maybe use as preventive? Ideas?

Well, I hope this brings everything up to date. Sorry I jumped around so much, but trying to get all questions answered.

Connie what do you think of the shots.? I feel like giving it a chance.

Thanks again
Geri

Geri, I completely understand your concerns about the steroids. Certainly they have to be used conservatively and only when necessary. We do a twice a year blood panel on Kasey to check his liver function and overall health - this tells the vet how the dog is handling the steroid. Our vet is very conservative with meds, and she is certain that you can use steroids correctly to help make the dog comfortable without risking their health (vetalog shots are a serious amount of steroid that, I agree, is not something I would choose btw) We only use the low dose pills - the vetalog shots stay in their systems for a month. Please know Im not 'pushing' steroids!

I'm a little confused about the Atopica. You said that you hope to be able to start cutting back? is your plan to be able to give only a small dose over his lifetime, or to be able to stop eventually? Just making sure you know that Atopica doesn't fix anything - you have to keep giving this drug for the life of the dog. That's where my hesitance comes in, and where I fear suppressing the immune system for life.

In my opinion, unless you have a dog that can be maintained with bathing, fish oil, antihistamines, probiotics and diet, without the use of Rx's, then you have to choose between Atopica and low dose steroids. I don't like either one, and honestly I had to do a lot of research and talking to my derma vet to make a decision. Kasey is a highly allergic dog. He doesn't really have just a season or two of symptoms - it's up and down all year long! Some weeks are better than others for sure, but it's a daily maintainance thing. We chose to start with the conservative route and see if the relief was enough to give Kasey a good quality of life. We aren't shooting for 100% relief, but more a balance between relief and too much meds!

Does your derma vet check paws and tail area for bacteria and yeast each time you go in? I ask that because those are HUGE triggers for Kasey's itching - just a few yeast cause a LOT of biting and scratching. Since we have gotten the yeast under control with an Rx we give only on Saturday and Sunday, the yeast has not come back and he's a lot better. It's the little things we don't think of that can make a big difference.

I'm not at home but wanted to remind you of the article on Atopica I posted earlier. Here's a portion that fits with what Lori's saying about lowest-possible-effective-dosing oral Pred and antihistamines, etc.:

http://www.2ndchance.info/atopica.htm#S4

I know you have a vet visit this week and I think you are doing a good job of compiling a list of questions/topics.

Back later.

Lori,

(I'm a little confused about the Atopica. You said that you hope to be able to start cutting back? is your plan to be able to give only a small dose over his lifetime, or to be able to stop eventually? Just making sure you know that Atopica doesn't fix anything - you have to keep giving this drug for the life of the dog. That's where my hesitance comes in, and where I fear suppressing the immune system for life.)

I was hoping to cut back on the Atopica as we do the protocals that you and Connie recommended. ( I read where one person actually got down to 1 or 2 Atopica a month. Although, I do not see how that can help.) Such as baths, rinse feet, no grass etc. Maybe an antihistimine. And shots. Maybe work with some of the tropical sprays and lotions. And like you said maybe some Prednisone when he gets really bad.

But my concern is that this time he got so bad I wonder if he can get better just doing those steps and no Atopica.? We had tried maybe half of the things you have mentioned, but not all of the protocal. I would love it if we did everything on your list, that we would be able to manage the allergies.

Are those the steps you took when your dog was at his worst?

What antihistimine do you use. ?

How long did you say you have been doing the shots.?

This is only are 2nd visit to the Derm Vet. (tomorrow) I sure would hope that she checks tail and paws as those are where he has the most problems.

I'll be checking here in the morning b4 we go. I'm going to run your protocal by her and some of the other stuff we have talked about. Anymore pointers you can give me b4 I go, sure will be appreciated.

Thanks Geri

Geri, sorry I didn't see this post before you went to the derma vet! I've been babysitting my 17 year old grandson for a couple days so I couldn't check the board. I would love to answer your questions. I have an appt in a few minutes, but I will write this afternoon. Let me know what happened at the vet, and then we can figure stuff out.

Post removed by moderator or administrator.

Post removed by moderator or administrator.

Connie, why did it post this 3 times?!!!

Edited by Connie Sutherland (07/12/2012 03:01 PM)
Edit reason: I deleted;-)

Connie and Lori,

Derm Findings

Lumbar area is normal: papaules on ventrum cleared, Post inflammatory hyperpigmentation remains: minimal erythema of ventral interdigital area remains: skin cytology from feet normal, area has moderate cocci:

( I had spoke to her about your protocals and that I did not like having him on the atopica.So this is what we came up with)

Finish up the Atopica that I have
Start allergy vaccine. Will start on Tue.
Finish Simplicef
Start anti histamines (try Chlortrimeton) Wondering what you two use on your dogs.
Bathe 3 times a week alternating malaseb and allergroom shampoo. Follow up with resicort conditioner for anti itch
Douxo chlorhexidine pads 3 times week on feet and tail.
Use advantix 2 once a month
Use Adams Flea spray or ectopamine spray lightly mist on coat for mosquitoes
Use Triamcinolone 1.5 mg if necessary. Use as little as possible.

Will look at food trial next month.

So all of this is very do-able except the bath part.
We have no area in house to bathe him. My husband made a table for outdoors for me to use but even at that I'm not getting any younger, if you get my drift, with a touchy back, and my boy is 105 lbs. Plus I start working in Aug. again. So I can probably do bathing till Aug but I'm thinking that I'm going to have to use the vet office for shampoos, but very expensive, so at the most once or twice a week.

Thoughts on everything please.
Also did you ever have side effects with the shots?
What anti histamines help with your dog?

I need to also start thinking of a new diet. I know none of the kibble is very good. She is talking Royal Canin. (not sure on spelling.) She mentioned Vension and pototes or something like that.

Thanks Geri

bump

(I'm not at home)