I have a clear picture, and I'm sure you don't draw blood or otherwise abuse the dog, I can see your point of one good correction is worth 50 jerks on a choke, but you could gain the same effect with a proper fitting, strong correction with an unsharpened prong, I just don't bieleve there is a dog alive that needs "that much" pressure to preform.

I think my main problem with the whole thing is an accident can happen that would seriously injure a dog, especially if a novice trainer like myself, who can't give good corrections to begin with took your advise and tried this. Do you understand my view?

I understand what you are saying, and I have written that this is not for all dogs, and the same would go for all trainers; I should stress this more. I am not talking about sharpening the prong so I can gut a cow, but enough to pinch the dog , when jerked. With the loose fitting prong the dog really does not know it is on and then when the time comes, bam, the pressure is there and gone. Very quick and effective. I can adjust the level of pressure just as I can with the normal way in which a prong is used, but the really only big difrence is the dog does not notice the sharp-prong as much as a tight fitting one that has not been altered. I do use the regular prong sometimes too. I do agree that the sharp prong can cause damage if apllied wrong, but so can a regular prong. I have seen a do with a tight fitting prong, with a new handler, cut the dogs kneck without altering it. Putting aside the sharp-prong, any form of pressure requires the right timing and judgement on the amount of pressure. Exprience counts when determining these things. There are no two ways around it.
I guess every dog needs diffrent methods, and this is hte way I like to train. Some dogs need to be trained diffrently. There are dogs alive that will not respond well to hard corrections with a tight prong but will with a medium with a loose sharp-prong. They won't fight it. It will clear the conflict for a dog in this case.

So if the collar is so loose the dog doesn't know it is there. When you give a correction doesn't the ends go to the middle ring. In effect not giving a real correction at all.

No, not if both rings are clipped onto the leash. Take a normal prong and try and you will see what I mean.

Michael,

The objection is not to using compulsion, it is the need to sharpen the prongs. One of the things I have seen over and over is people escalating their corrections with any correction collar, when it is the correction that is the problem not the level. The biggest problem most people have with making a correction is they telegraph it. The dog knows it's coming and is prepared for it.

Habituation will take care of the dog thinking about the collar being on, and with most prongs you can use them the way they are intended and still get a correction even if the collar is loose.

My bigest point here is it isn't the purpose of a correction to overpower the dog. That is a compition that is a waste of time. A good correction can be performed with any correction collar in the hands of a skilled trainer. In most cases people tend to escalte corrections for 1 of 2 reasons. Either they are making lousy corrections, and changing the collar won't change that. Or they are in too big of a hurry and want to do it quicker. In those cases there is a good chance of screwing up the dog. Either the dog hasn't had the proper foundation laid, or the dog has had so many corrections that they have lost effectiveness. Most people won't show you their failures. They are set on a program and blame the dog if it fails, and then attempt to escalate the corrections with no better success. I bet anything that take the dog with the sharpened prong and put it in the hands of a diferent trainer and the new trainer will accomplish the same thing without sharpening the prongs.

The only reason to sharpen the prongs is to increase the pain caused by the collar, that is not the purpose of a correction. Frustration leads people to do some silly things, this is one. It is like trying to train a dog only on the highest setting of an e-collar. There are significantly diminishing returns for escalation of the correction.

Richard, from now on I'm calling you the Bus Driver.

Wanna know why?

Because you're takin' people to SCHOOL.

Nice. . .

Gota hand to to ya Bus Driver, you have had the points pegged from the beginning of the thread. I will never be late for the bus again Mr. Driver!

Here's my take on all of this.
Positive motivation should always be used first, it may take longer to get the desired results but you end up with a more confident K-9. IS THIS NOT WHAT WE ALL WANT.

Compulsion training will move the dog along faster in training. This I've been told over and over by trainers. These same trainers go through quite a few dogs to get what they want.

I prefer to use the combination of both methods,
My old GSD dog,(still have him) worked well without much compulsion, but did need a session once in a while. His level of correction with a
unsharpened prong collar is a 2-3. He would respond to a regular choke but more correction are required.

"I have never seen any dog that needed a prong collar to be sharpened" But my exposure is limited.

I know that I have over corrected my dog's and if they could talk, I hate to know what they would tell me. (you dumb &^$%*#^@%^&% I'M ONLY DOING WHAT YOU TAUGHT ME!

Richard, I don't agree with some of what you have said. For one, in the real world like home dogs, Patrol dogs just for example, the people invovled do not have months to achieve results by feeding the dog hotdogs, and giving him mild tugs with a choker. Yes you can use a normal prong, and I do. But try training him with a fur saver or nlyon collar, most dogs will give you the bird under distractionif they are hell bent on fighting a dog or breaking a long down, outing etc. The sharp-prong makes it clear, 'do not go there". IT is quick and effective. I feel when correcting a dog , yes the surpise element will get you by sometimes, but I feel the correction should be just over the tolorable level of the dog in question, as to make him undestand that doing the undesiriable act is wrong, and making sure he will remeber the next time that this is not something that he wants to do. Maybe he will need another correction next time, or maybe just a little reminder. But if yuo are using the prong it will be quicker for him to learn. ANd if you are using rewards then this animal should give you years of work. You do not have to jerk his kneck hard, a light tug will get through to some, others a hard jerk might be in order. You can use a normal prong and get results too with some. Maybe it will take you longer but you will get there. However the most effective correction should be used when wanting to make a lasting imprint. Your correction has to inflict enough distraction to have your dog mind you amd remember it , when he is distracted, and for the dog to say hey, that was not cool I won't take my eyes off you to look at that dog, and then you can reenforce the safe zone by releasing him or her with the ball, or some food, or whatever. My point is that in the real world we need results, and compulsion is needed. Wheather it be a sharp prong or e-collar. Each dog is different and different collars give different results on different dogs. If a dog folds with a light correction with a sharp prong, then chances are he will fold with a normal prong. It is complusion that is the issue, not the collar. I disagree with you on this. I am not talking about hamburgering the dogs kneck. Complusion is complusion, and how each dog deales with the stress is how we determine what temperment that dog has. Temperment as I said before plays a majot part. Most people from the houshold pet to the police service dog handler do not have years to train a dog they have weeks or months. In these case pressure is needed to make a lasting imprint on a dog thus having him ready for the work. There is no room for having dogs not minding you on the street. In the case of the home dog, people want there dogs to obey them. This for the average Joe is not something that they want to invest years to accomplish. You have to go to pressure to get this done in a resonable amount of time. Yes there should be rewards too. But simply withholding the reward, will not give reliable results. You can use drive, but the correction must be clear. Drive complusion drive is a good formula. It would be dumb not to use a positave. However a tight fitting prong or a sharp prong using the sharp prong in a responsiable manner, I don't see the problem.
I also understand that alot of top trainers will get rid of the dogs that they break. THis is a good point. It goes on all the time. Just becasue they have had success with a few dogs, does not mean they have not broken a few too. But in most cases I have not seen many dogs in the sport that have not had heavy prong pressure at some point score well in big trials. I have not seen any dog that was trained with food and prey items, and given a quick light jerk do really well in the sport. It does not produce reliable results. When you are correcting the correction must make it clear to the dog that this is no.
As for someone taking a dog that has given results using a sharp collar, and then having someone else take the dog and use a normal prong, this really does not prove anything. The dog is trained already. If the person understands dogs the imprint is done and the dog should perform, but alot of dogs know learn that thier new owner will not pressure them the way the old owners did.

Lets try this again.....

At no time have I ever suggested that training does not require compulsion. I have no problem with compulsion. If anything I have been acused of using it too much. Until recently I have only trained with a slip and praise. I did use some treats with my current dog, but it is mostly corrections.

I take usually 6-8 months to train a dog. Not years, with some it is even quicker.

My argument is the SHARPENED PRONG, not compulsion. There are a whole boat load of trainers in Schutzhund, Ring (a couple of varieties), PSD, PP (my speciality), and plain old obedience.
So lets ask a question:

Who here thinks that a sharpend prong collar is a useful too?

How many have used it?

Having watched this thread, and others, I am pretty sure I know the answer. Starting at scratch, you think it is a useful tool and use it.

I don't. So we are at 1 and 1.

It is dangerous, and if you need it you don't know how to make a proper correction. I have taken so many dogs the "had to have a prong" for a correction and put a nylon slip on and taught the dog a new behavior quickly. That is my point. Give someone that knows how to make a proper correction and a plain prong will do the trick, I can probably do it with a nylon slip. I'll bet Lou or Josh can do it with an e-collar at a low setting. And I'll bet Van Camp, either of the Felknors, or Vince can do it with a plain prong. In all cases it is the correction collar of choice.

Yes I have used a prong, 2 times. In one case it was a GSD with a heavy coat. The other was a 2 y/o Giant with no training. That dog was back to a slip in 2 months and remained on it for the next 12 years.

We have no argument, compulsion is a valuable tool, and at very low levels even the "positive training only" trainers use it to guide the dog in to a position.

We do have an argument with the SHARPENED PRONG.