Catherine,

If your dog is going to work in a "true natural" fashion like the wolves then they will chose flight over fight, that's the natural thing to do to survive. Wolves
are aloof and will not fight unless cornered. Remember they are using their tearing, slashing, nipping on prey, they are not using it out of defense. As far as big cats go, they do use a crushing full mouth bite on the neck or nose of the animal. They sufficate their prey and hold it calmly
until it's dead, haven't you seen the Discovery channel. Well off to train my Schutzhund dog for that full calm mouth grip.

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Chris: That is exactly what I was thinking. It seems from the documentaries I have seen, that the only time an animal is biting and retargeting is when they are trying to maneuver the animal to get the full mouth bite that will bring the prey down. I don't think I have ever seen animals (on TV of course) just keep rebiting an animal and then stand back and wait for it to fall over from blood loss.

Vince: Thanks. I guess I was just getting confused because I couldn't think of another reason why a dog would want to bite other than prey or defense. Is there another reason? I actually have been training for a couple years, but until very recently (unfortunately) I mostly just held the leash and did what I was told. Now I have a new dog who is a bit of a challenge so I have been trying to learn more in order (hopefully) to train her better.

I nominate Catherine for MVP. W/out her misguided posts, this recent flurry of really excellent postings would not have been sparked! This is really good stuff, guys.
Ellen, did you read the article in the USA mag a couple of yrs ago, comparing Sch to herding? I wish I'd saved it, was really interesting. Perhaps you could write the next one? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Catherine, keep posting, please!

If someone has already pointed this out, excuse me, but could part of the difference between frequent retargeting to get a better bite and using one single bite and holding on for dear life, be the difference between hunting in a pack and hunting as a solitary animal? It would seem to me, that it would be more efficient for a pack to work one way, and a solitary animal to work another. In protection work, the dog is more like a solitary animal, in that he doesn't have the support of a pack to help him bring down the prey, and that it would be more efficient for him to get one good grip and hold the subject so that the handler can make the apprehension. Remember, in protection work, we're not actually trying to kill prey, we are trying to apprehend criminals. I would want my protection dog to immobilize the rapist until the police got there to arrest him.

Another example might be the crocodile. The croc doesn't retarget. He gets one good bite, then goes into the death roll, and it's all over. If the croc were to let go, then the prey would run away if it could. I know crocs and dogs are completely different animals, but we're talking about hunting strategy, are we not?

Is this making any sense? I know nothing about protection work, but I'm learning a lot by reading this thread....at least I think I am....please correct me if I'm way off base.

You are correct. Wolf pack hunting is highly organized and efficient. It has to be or the pack does not survive. Some wolves run ahead to turn the prey back toward the back (possibly where we got our herding breeds), someone's job is to hamstring, some wolves will be on the neck, etc. A solitary wolf isn't going to be stupid enough to challenge a huge animal, like a moose. Watch the single wolf catching and killing a rabbit, the behaviors should look very familiar.

Catherine writes:

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When facing animals larger than themselves, they outmaneuver and outflank - biting and retargeting as necessary and weakening the prey. Its suicidal for them to bite and hold immediately as they're taught to do with humans - they'd be seriously hurt.

I really don't want to digress into a discussion about wolf hunting practices but your statement is just not right. If you watch tapes closely, you will see that each wolf pack member tends to specialize in a certain predatory behavior that meshes with the different predatory behaviors of the other pack members on the hunt -- every pack member does not perform the same predatory behavior of outflanking, biting & re-targeting as you suggest. For example, you will see one individual excel at tracking (finding prey); another excel at cutting it out of the herd & running it; another excel at heading the separated animal off (cutting off its escape & preventing it from getting back to the herd); another excel at hamstringing (catching the hind leg & cutting the tendon); another excel at tearing at the flank; or, another excel at bringing the animal down or stopping it by biting & holding the top of the neck with a full-mouth grip (usually the dominant male, or pack leader). Quite often these particular behaviors and bites show us each individual's rank order in the pack. So in the whole pack you can see the full array of bites and bite behavior from the strong, full-mouth bite demonstrating the sound nerve and confidence of the leader all the way down to the slash & run bite of the least confident, lowest ranking member of the hunt.

Of course dogs aren't wolves but they do exhibit individual genetic behaviors that are clearly expressed by the quality of their bite. The bite will tell you all you need to know about the dog's genetic character & temperament because it demonstrates the quality of the dog's nerves.

That having been said, let me try to illustrate why the full-mouth neck grip on a dangerous large prey animal is actually the safest for the dog AND the most effective at bringing down the prey. BTW the full-mouth neck grip is done on TOP of the neck -- in contrast to the throat bite which is done to kill after the animal has been brought down or exhausted.

Illustration -- I had to move 4 rams away from the flock and into another pasture so they couldn't breed. I directed Nicky (my GSD) to drive the rams away from me toward the gate to the other field. Normally I would have led the sheep & have Nicky drive them behind me, but I didn't want to be anywhere near these rams for my own safety. Three rams moved off OK but the fourth ram refused to go to the gate. We put the three rams into the new field and went back to move the last ram. The ram refused to let Nicky drive it forward -- constantly turning to face down the dog & refusing to budge. Finally, I had Nicky move in closer & closer from the front just to try to get the bugger to turn & run -- no dice. When Nicky was less than six feet in front of the ram, the ram dropped its head -- it was clearly indicating it was going to charge & fight if Nicky didn't back off. My first instinct was to protect the dog by calling him away -- I had never seen a ram/dog fight before. But, somehow I had sense enough to see that if I said anything I could distract Nicky and he could be badly injured. All I could do was stand and watch. Nicky stood calmly, eyes focused on the ram -- he had never been charged by a ram so I figured he was going to get nailed. Nicky kept standing, calmly facing the ram with no sign of emotion or movement whatsoever -- just total focus. Suddenly, the ram dropped its head and charged straight into Nicky. I saw NO movement on Nicky's part -- it happened THAT FAST! I do remember thinking -- "he's dead!". But , the next thing I knew, there was Nicky locked onto the top of that ram's neck with a beautiful full-mouth grip! It was like watching a matador make one slight pivot to let the bull brush by him. That must have been what Nicky did because I did not see a foot move until he leaped onto the ram's neck as it passed him. Nicky held on while the ram tossed & bucked & twisted trying to get Nicky off. If Nicky had lost his grip, the ram could have hit him or trampled him easily. Nicky held on until the ram exhausted itself & stood still -- it took quite a few minutes, NOT seconds. Nicky released his grip giving the ram a chance to go where it was supposed to. It didn't. The stupid ram tried to fight again. And again, Nicky took it by the top of the neck, holding on while the ram fought. But, this time Nicky was in fighting mode himself and he took advantage of the exhausted ram. When the ram stopped fighting, Nicky used that grip and his leverage to throw that 250 pound ram onto the ground -- don't ask me how he did it but he did. Nicky was now in full fight mode and started to go for the throat when I had to intervene. The ram was exhausted but Nicky still had plenty of fight left. The ram had expended all its energy fighting while Nicky just went along for the ride until the ram exhausted itself and Nicky could use his energy to finish the job.

Who was hurt here? Stupid ol' Rambo was bleeding a bit (but not much) from a couple of nice clean puncture wounds on his neck. Who could have been seriously hurt, like dead, here? Not the dog.

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What type of dog is harder to fend off? One thats biting and retargeting - ie. fighting in a natural way, or one that just bites and holds?

I hope I illustrated that answer above. A dog or wolf attached to the top of a sheep or a moose neck can not be butted, gored or trampled -- a dog that is snapping around slashing & biting is at far greater risk of injury especially if it loses its footing.

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Why do we humans think we know better than nature how to have a predator take down prey?

Why indeed. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

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If a dog is under real stress and fighting for its life is it going to use a full mouth bite and hold on for control when the 'prey' hasn't been weakened?

That grip is specifically TO WEAKEN the prey AND to keep the dog away from horns & hooves while expending as little energy as possible so there is plenty left over for the kill. Also, IMO this is the only grip that could possibly allow an individual dog or wolf to bring down a large prey animal by itself if it had to. JMO.

Chris wrote: Also I don't think it's fair to make humans appear to be large prey to a dog. If a dog has been taught/conditioned to have no fear of a human then even a large human is not really that big of a threat to a 95lb GSD.

IMO it's not that the dog is taught not to fear of humans -- IMO a dog will always have a fear of humans as well as of aggressive, nasty prey animals. It is that the dog has been taught to work/fight PAST or THRU its fear and into the prey/control mode which is where calmness & focus come from -- and where the dog's advantage in the fight lies. Again, JMO.

Ellen

I stand corrected. My terminiology was off. Courage is not the absence of fear but the controlling of it.

Chris

Catherine
While I am new to this post I've been reading the board for awhile now. Hope you don't mind me throwing a new twist to this.
Dog's are considered personal property, if a dog attacks someone the owner is liable. If a dog is protection trained either by you or a profesional it MAY be considered a weapon, just like a knife or a gun.
A true story: Aprox 2 years ago a man shot another. He claimed he was in fear for his life. Now hears the catch. The man with the gun was in his livingroom in his easy chair when the second man came to the door. The first man shot him on the front porch not once not twice but in fact emptied a 357 into the man on the porch. Yes they had problems with each other. The 1st man was charged with asault with a deadly weapon. The Sheriffs office did not veiw this as self defence as the force was exsesive. Fortunatly the 2nd man lived (due to the first being a lousy shot) had he died the man claiming to be defending himself would have been charged with murder. If a dog is trained in PP then is'nt it also considered a weapon and if that dog gives multiple bites could this be viewed as exsesive force. I don't know what the law is where you live but it is something to think about and maybe check out. Good luck <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

I'm not speaking of nipping. I'm speaking of a dog letting go and retargeting if and when its necessary. Not mindlessly holding on and being beaten, not running in and hanging on for dear life with the first bite. An animal knows when it can take control and when it needs to back off and retarget. They're much more adept at this than humans.

People taking unprotected bites? Thats what I mean by realistic? Are you serious???

Is it really safer for a dog to latch onto a human and not let go rather than fighting? So the dog can be beaten while hanging on? That doesn't make logical sense to me in a real life situation, just as a dog flying through the air to make a bite. Those make nice targets.

My brother was attacked by a large PSD once that had gotten out of his yard. Good thing it was winter and he had on plenty of padding. Know what he did? He braced himself, stuck out his arm and beat the dog with his other arm - not an easy thing to do but thats what he did. An isolated case? No.

Interesting as it is, I won't debate the way a predator kills prey because it will go nowhere. I just hope people use more than the Discovery channel for their research. Too bad I can't go into how cats kill.

Tamar,

Isn't this where handler responsibility comes into play? The man could have been stopped without emptying the gun. Same with using a dog. I don't want someone ripped to pieces and I'd need to call off the dog before that happened, but I have a right to defend myself.