Quote: sarah morris

Quick answer: Lost revenue. If clients can do it themselves why would they need a trainer? :wink:

I thought about that after I posted but you can learn clicker training at places like Petco. While I'm not a big fan of their classes but if you wanted to pick up the basics of clicker training that would be a good place to do so.

I've always believed that the advice for after care is the most valuable part of any service. When I clean viruses off someone's computer I don't just leave them without an AV program. I install a good free AV program along with a good malware scanner and give them advice on keeping both up to date and suggest a schedule for scans that should keep them free of most infections. Customers who hire me wouldn't hire me again if three days after working on their computer the thing was infected again.

 Quote: katie o'connor

I'm not asking how to shape it using compulsion. I am asking if Jennifer has ever shaped an exercise like a retrieve with marker training. She seems to think that takes "no skill" but compulsion training it would.

Katie

I figured that. I just had this funny image in my mind of someone throwing a toy then yanking on the dog's prong collar all the way to the toy, slamming it into the dog's mouth and then yanking it all the way back to where they started.

I'm not against correcting a dog but I save overt correction for the serious situations. In my opinion training has to be fun from start to finish. The only time I would correct would be if the dog just disrespectfully blows me off or was doing something dangerous for it, myself or another person or animal.

I'd like to speak a little to the clients vs. personal dogs point, if I may. First of all, I don't take money for training, but I generally have up to three clients on the go at any given time because I like the experience, and because I love the dogs. Mostly I work on referral basis, but often people approach me to start a training relationship because they see me out and about with my own dogs. I remain selective about who I will work with, and try and focus my attention on working breeds and problem dogs.

Anyway, I have what I call a "Key Constraints" triangle that I use when communicating the limitations of a training method to a client. I have no idea if others use it or a variation of it, but since I have not come across it elsewhere, it seems to be unique to my toolkit. What my Key Constraints triangle states is; an exercise can be taught two of precisely/flashily, reliably, or quickly... But cannot be taught within all three constraints. If you think about it, any method and result you choose to dissect with this triangle "fits" the mold.

My ideal training method is to use motivation exhaustively, followed by a proofing phase. While the dog learns quickly during the motivational phase, this method undeniably takes the longest. The end result, however, is a precise (pretty, flashy) and reliably dog... It just took a while to get there.

Compulsive methods work quick. That's their temptation. PROPERLY EXECUTED (and I have worked with some MASTERS of compulsive training) they produce reliability quickly... But it sure ain't pretty! At least not when compared to the above motivational followed by proofing.

On the other hand we have purely positive. This is essentially the same as phase one of my desired method, but it just doesn't go beyond the motivational into the proofing. I personally believe that purely positive training (without any compulsive proofing whatsoever, even in dogs that require it) is a bastardization of the wonderful operant conditioning methods which were NEVER meant to be so vehemently adhered to by the animal rightists. Nevertheless, purely positive training teaches pretty obedience quickly... You know, until a leaf blows by (lack of reliability).

I think most people probably won't argue with the above. To head off any issues, I realize there are those who can train precisely and quickly, to an enviable degree of reliability. I am not one of them (I take a long time, haha!) and neither are my clients. In general, the people I work with to fix problem behaviours are neither Ivan Balabanov nor Michael Ellis, so those two gentlemen aside, I think my key constraints triangle is pretty relevant.

What usually happens when I meet a person is, they want MY dog. Or, more accurately, they want THEIR DOG to behave like MY DOG. I quickly tell them that if they want to achieve it, they'll have to put the amount of work into it that I do. I am more than happy to help them, but won't waste my time or theirs unless they're prepared to put in the time.

After some honest soul searching, they usually realize that what they want is just a dog they can walk down the street without dislocating an arm. They don't need it flashy. They need it fast (as in NOW!) and they need it reliable (so their groceries don't end up in the street when the dog decides to take off after a cat). These people get the ten-minute Koehler style fix. Done. Weeks/months later, these people pass me on the street with heeling dogs, eternally grateful for the ability to walk their pets. It was all they wanted. Fast, reliable... Not pretty.

VERY VERY rarely do I meet someone who says "I don't care what it takes, or how long it takes, teach me to get my dog to look like yours!" but the few times I have met these people, I appreciated them. Dog training isn't easy, and if you're not completely absorbed by it, you're not doing it right.

I am not speaking in defense of Jennifer's methods, but the fact is that I have found even in my day to day interactions (with FREE TRAINING, no less, so the cost doesn't even factor in!) people are generally impatient. I do far more ten-minute Koehler fixes than anything else, unfortunately... The only good thing I guess is it leaves me lots of time to work with my own dogs.

In summary, even given the option, it can't be assumed that everyone will choose to actually TRAIN a dog.

I think your explanation makes sense; interesting approach.

I guess what it boils down to is, there are some trainers that will not take on a client that is not willing to put the time in to train their dog w/ methods other than compulsion in the learning phase.

And there are some dog owners (the majority of members on this board, I'd be willing to bet) who feel that the bond they have, or are developing w/ their dog, is more important than the quick fix...

I originally had a mindset that I would only work with those willing to put in the effort, but realized that ultimately the dogs were the ones that suffered. If the only option for these owners is the other extreme (Petsmart, for instance) the dog ends up in a shelter in short order. I'd probably feel differently if I took money for my services, but in my case it really has been always about what's best for the dogs in my opinion.

I suppose I did make the call that if ten minutes in a prong and a couple of quick direction changes can keep that dog in his home, it was worth it, even for the dog. And I certainly do wish ALL dog owners were like the folks here.

 Quote: Jennifer Ruzsa

I suppose I did make the call that if ten minutes in a prong and a couple of quick direction changes can keep that dog in his home, it was worth it, even for the dog. And I certainly do wish ALL dog owners were like the folks here.

Jennifer, I can see the logic in that approach... in particular for pet owners who have no ambition other than to have a dog that doesn't pull them down the street. (and as someone who is still ardently working on having a dog who walks nicely w/out a prong, I know that there are many pet owners out there who would not take the approach that I am taking to 'get it right!' )

For me, it's worth the extra time; I love the focus she's giving me on our walks. We still have a ways to go, but it's very gratifying to me to see the progress we've made...

 Quote: jennifer ruzsa

.... the fact is that I have found even in my day to day interactions (with FREE TRAINING, no less, so the cost doesn't even factor in!) people are generally impatient. I do far more ten-minute Koehler fixes than anything else, unfortunately... The only good thing I guess is it leaves me lots of time to work with my own dogs. .... In summary, even given the option, it can't be assumed that everyone will choose to actually TRAIN a dog.

That's a good answer to

 Quote: connie sutherland

Is it just that the clients are presented with the choice and prefer the heel-in-20-minutes method? Are they aware of the choices? ...

That was well-presented, too.

It doesn't address the questions about Jennifer Hack's apparent belief that marker training is covered in Marker Training, Step 1, or why a prong is a "necessary training item" for puppies when we are discussing the O.P.'s question, when he is using Ed's Basic Ob video and is obviously ready to use the time he needs to use for the results he wants (or that was the impression I got ) .

But do I understand that you were not addressing those questions.

 Quote:

Poster: Jennifer Ruzsa
Subject: Re: Prong collar on a 5 month old pup for walking

I originally had a mindset that I would only work with those willing to put in the effort, but realized that ultimately the dogs were the ones that suffered. If the only option for these owners is the other extreme (Petsmart, for instance) the dog ends up in a shelter in short order. I'd probably feel differently if I took money for my services, but in my case it really has been always about what's best for the dogs in my opinion.

Jennifer R . , I agree and honestly think that's a good way to go with most customers if that's what they want and I have found that's what most want that approach me . I'm not in the business or put it out there volunteering training . It's just people who know I used to be a PSD trainer .

It's a quick reliable method and one that I feel fits into most dog owners skillset to train and maintain . They just want an obediant dog that they can live with .


Cindy stated :

 Quote:

It doesn't address the questions about Jennifer Hack's apparent belief that marker training is covered in Marker Training, Step 1, or why a prong is a "necessary training item" for puppies when we are discussing the O.P.'s question, when he is using Ed's Basic Ob video and is obviously ready to use the time he needs to use for the results he wants (or that was the impression I got ) .

I would like to see those questions answered too . She also has questions waiting for her by others in the many other threads throughout this board , that she has posted her training advice , opinions and other information .

I've been waiting to see more detail into her compulsive training method but from the very general posts she gives it only looks like the same old school training I started out doing . I see so many similaries to how I was when I started out . Limited use of food training , e-collar , toy rewards and the belief the dog should be doing it for me with only my verbal praise and not for some toy or food that I had to give them .

I could be wrong . I try to keep my mind open and am always looking for new training methods . I just wish she would give more information .

Here is maybe another perspective to what is being discussed. For me this is extremely relevant in that it brings out what I’m working on right now with Sasha. Also, if this helps someone else, all the better. Also, it is kinda long so sorry in advance.

Let me first qualify that I do not hold myself out as an expert. I am only speaking from my personal experience and do believe in motivational training 1000%.

I recently began working with a trainer on Sasha’s aggression which was “diagnosed” as fear aggression towards people and other dogs. I had tried over and over food, toys, praise…but she was in such a frenzied state that she wouldn’t even look at me. Jennifer made an EXCELLENT point about the “triangle” and it is really true. A qualifier…aggression is something that you need to seek out a qualified trainer for and really doesn’t apply to the majority of dogs.

I am using a combination of compulsion and motivation. The compulsion was used initially to make some headway and get the aggression “under control”. Progress was extremely fast, but I know that she needs to “learn” how to act on her own. All the compulsion did was show that there is a “huge consequence” for acting aggressively…and she knows that. With this we were even able to work with 2 other dogs about 10 feet way. Huge progress very fast! However, this is not the relationship I want with her so now we are reinforcing what she learned with motivation training.

To enforce this point I put her in situations that would proof her. Last night I put her in a down right outside a busy grocery store door. It was safe in that she had her back against a window, could see people behind and in front of her. I sat there for about 45 minutes and pumped treats into her. She was the most relaxed and happy dog I have ever seen. However, I could not have gotten to that point without the initial compulsion. Also, if I was using just compulsion, she would have been a nervous wreck, waiting for the next correction and not fixing the problem.

Have been proofing her down at the park with what I call “out of control” dogs, using 99% motivational methods, marking when she is “good”. It isn’t easy and DOES TAKE ALOT OF WORK AND PATIENCE, but I would rather miscue giving her a treat than miscue giving a correction. To prove this point, I was working on a come from a down with a long line attached and I didn’t switch to the flat collar from the prong before doing this (huge mistake on my part) and accidentally gave her a correction. I felt horrible in that I got this look like “I didn’t do anything wrong so why did you do that”. Would rather have missed a “marker” than get that look again. The OB that we are working on backslid a bit from the “compulsion” method, but that is OK since I know the results will be longer lasting with motivation and she is a happier dog for it.

Again, sorry for being so long. This is a great forum and I don’t think we would have made the progress without the advice given here. It’s also great to hear different opinions and would love to hear any input. Would also like to add that our other 4 dogs are motivationally trained with little to no compulsion.

Just my 2 cents.

 Quote: David Walter

... Have been proofing her down at the park with what I call “out of control” dogs, using 99% motivational methods, marking when she is “good”.

Could you expand on this?

Hope this makes sense. What I call out of control dogs are those dogs that are "walking their owners", usually at the end of their flexi, pulling their owners along, running in circles and barking at others. What I call "in control" are those dogs that are walking along calm.

What I do is to put her in a down but in a position where she can see what is going on and coming towards her. Let her watch and praise her and reward her when she doesn't show any aggressive or nervous behavior which for her is raising her hackles. Thinking about this, I mainly mark when she makes eye contact which she has associated with "good girl". We started out further away, but are moving closer each and every day. Usually will rapid feed her when they pass by with no aggressive or nervouse signs (i.e. hit the jackpot).

On the flip side, if she does start building up to an agression state, she will get a very light correction, I will "heel" in a quick circle and put her back in a down with praise and reward if she is good. 99.9% of the time now this works...may do this a couple of times to get her to refocus. If it doesn't and I see an episode coming usually preceded with a low growl, huffing, hackles up and getting tense, a strong NO and the start of a hard correction puts her into a very submissive state (oh no, I really screwed up and the wrath of the almighty is going to come down on me).

Hope this makes sense. If not let me know and I will try to clarify some more.