Geoff:
Well...my dog isn't exactly your typical "SAR or detection dog." I wanted a "dual purpose" type of dog and oooh boy did I get one! Ask Jason and Bryan about him. He's still a bit young (16 mos) and he has some USAR stuff to attend to, so he'll hit the FR trial field next year (shhhhhh...). I'll PM you his pedigree if you're interested, but it would be much more worth your while to see him in person. Really though, I'm just looking forward to someday meeting Sasha - Jason said she's great. Oh, and you too!

And, I've seen what Bryan drinks. It's cheap-o garbage! You know, the stuff you can buy for like $5 a case??! I'll hook you up

Now I've really de-railed this thread!

... and back to "Head shaking and growling in bitework"....

Well there goes the long post I had written....

 Quote: Alyssa Myracle

 Quote: Jenni Williams

Instead of breeding DOGS and testing them w/Sch., we are breeding SCH. DOGS.

*applause*

I've seen just that in my local working dog club that is 98% SchH. I've seen a handler blow through 4 dogs in a 2 year period to find the right dog for their particular 'vision' of what a points dog should be. That's not me but whatever floats their boat I guess.

Though I saw a few dogs that I would've taken in a heartbeat, sold because it wasn't pushy enough for food or other things that I just couldn't get. Might as well start all over then, Right? Made me shake my head and growl ..

That's been my exact experience in the venues near me. Go through dog after dog b/c of one stupid thing or another. If these are good dogs overall being passed over, doesn't it make anyone stop and think that perhaps it's the SPORT that needs to change and not the dog?!

*nod* YES YES YES!!!!

Please correct me if I'm wrong, I know I have a lot to learn about these things but here's my take.
I can't remember which of Ed's videos defines the terms but it goes a little something like this:

The dog inherently has or does not have drives ie: prey, defense, fight or what not.

Now, the temperament of the dog is actually the sum of those drives(plus maybe his overall attitude ie:dominant, submissive, nerves etc...), and how or what combination the dog uses them in order to get the task at hand done.

The dogs default mode (which I think is what Jenni is trying to say by natural drive/tendencies, perhaps natural temperament would be a better term.).

Now each dog will have a "tendency" to use a specific ratio or combination of these drives consistently over any other combination, ie:70/30 defense/prey (meaning the dog will call on his/her defensive drive before its prey,(total speculation here))or 35/65 prey/defense or any other infinite number of combinations and possiblities, obviously it also depends on the task at hand. However each dog probably 90%or more of the time have a specific ratio they live in or perhaps their "core temperament" in which they reside or call upon for backup.

The Sports Arena is strictly a "standard" set by different cultures. Each culture has their own type or specialized working circumstances and/or environment which the majority of their dogs will have to deal with throughout their working career. Hence their specific sport is their interpretation of how to test their working dogs for the characteristics they ultimately desire. No one sport is the ultimate test for the truely perfect dog. Goes back to Geoff saying a kennel that produces dogs that work through many different dog sports and end up in various careers is breeding for strong, well-rounded dogs, and to be applauded.

The sports arena is in no way an end all goal rather a "Generalized Filter" to seperate the good the bad and the ugly. Personally I think roach backs are ugly. It's not a customized training plan for individual dog temperaments. Nor is it to enhance and build there natural temperament, although different temperaments will need different training methods or special attention to reach the different sport "standards". Hence the skill for reading your own dogs temperament, knowing the ultimate career of the dog, and knowing the different characteristics each sport tests for in order to enroll your dog in that sport would be ideal. That is, if you want to go with the sports. You can always just cut to the chase.

Certainly there are experts(not me) out there that after seeing a dog after a few sessions or some extended period of time can determine what that particular dog will and will not be capable of.

Now the development of sports for testing different natural temperaments or characteristics would be cool if you have the following (ie. a large group of people looking for the same traits or characteristics you're looking for).

Just my 2 cents...
I may be totally off here but I'm sure someone will surely let me know if I am. Please exuse punctuation errors I know some mods are sticklers about this.
Wow that was a longer post than I thought...

 Quote: ray fajardo

Now each dog will have a "tendency" to use a specific ratio or combination of these drives consistently over any other combination, ie:70/30 defense/prey (meaning the dog will call on his/her defensive drive before its prey,(total speculation here))or 35/65 prey/defense or any other infinite number of combinations and possiblities, obviously it also depends on the task at hand. However each dog probably 90%or more of the time have a specific ratio they live in or perhaps their "core temperament" in which they reside or call upon for backup.

No.
A dog is not naturally going to respond to a defensive attack with prey, because it has more prey drive than defense.

Quick, prey-like movement is responded to in prey drive- unless the dog either a) lacks prey drive, in which case he will not respond, or b) the dog has low prey drive and won't respond until the stimulation is greater, or will stop once his prey drive has been satisfied or depleted.

Threats and attacks (real or percieved) are responded to in defense drive- unless the dog either a) lacks defense, which means he will go into avoidance, or b) the threat is not great enough (or not percieved by the dog as a legitimate threat) for the dog to feel defensive.

A dog can be conditioned through repetition to associate certain things with prey or defense, and therefore shift into those frames of mind when presented with an object or situation, despite the lack of obvious prey-like movements or apparent threat.

For many dogs, the mere sight of a ball is associated so strongly with prey drive, they immediately shift into it.

We actively try to encourage these associations with regards to prey drive and the ball, tug, etc.

Some people, depending on their approach and goals, actively try to DIScourage associations between the stick or baton, and defense.
(I really don't understand the idea, unless the belief is that the dog is weak in defense, and it is better to keep them in prey 24/7 to avoid that weak spot.)

That makes sense..

 Quote: ray fajardo

Now each dog will have a "tendency" to use a specific ratio or combination of these drives consistently over any other combination, ie:70/30 defense/prey (meaning the dog will call on his/her defensive drive before its prey,(total speculation here))or 35/65 prey/defense or any other infinite number of combinations and possiblities, obviously it also depends on the task at hand. However each dog probably 90%or more of the time have a specific ratio they live in or perhaps their "core temperament" in which they reside or call upon for backup.

In a text book world 'yes' but in the real world even in sport, not really. I'm afraid we can't really break it down into numbers. Handlers and trainers can totally screw up a perfectly bred dog. Such as pulling out to much defense on a young dog, i.e. whip. Or even overwhelming it with to much bitework. There is such a thing as the "core temperament" but the bottom line is more than a sum of that. It is a sum of socializing, training, breeding, health etc. Lots of external things make the sum add up.

 Quote: ray fajardo

The Sports Arena is strictly a "standard" set by different cultures. Each culture has their own type or specialized working circumstances and/or environment which the majority of their dogs will have to deal with throughout their working career. Hence their specific sport is their interpretation of how to test their working dogs for the characteristics they ultimately desire. No one sport is the ultimate test for the truely perfect dog.

Yes I totally agree but again saying a dog has Woofywoofer Level 4 bark ionizer title is still doesn't tell the whole story if that is all that dog does. Every SchH3 or FR3 dog is in the end is still an individual. Goes back to me saying we should always try new stuff with our dogs. In the end you always end up with a better overall dog.

When I think about that decoy giving you the gears about your dog being a thrasher. It reminds me of those people who scrap a dog because it isn't dominant enough, pushy for the ball or food or some other asine excuse why they think the dog isn't doing what they want it to do. Face it we are working with livestock and something that is living and breathing is bound to have all sorts of surprises for us when we try to mould it into something that we 'want' it to be.