Quote: Sonya Anderson

I really do appreciate all the advice I have been given. I have done a lot of thinking about this situation and I fully realize I do not have what it takes to be pack leader (I don’t even want pack leader). I am not an obedience person, I suck at it and I just don’t have the mindset for it.

Realistically I have two options, return the dog or commit to keeping them separated for life. I can’t integrate these dogs and it is stupid to try, because I was blessed in the past with strong dogs that were tolerant of one another I made the mistake of choosing a year old dog instead of a puppy.

Anyways, thanks again for all the comments and advice, especially Willie. It is much appreciated and really got me thinking.

Sondra,

You have come a long way since Friday night/Saturday morning and I sincerely commend you for that. In light of this fact, I ask you continue to read and re-read the advice you've been given, especially Willie's most recent about keeping the LSGD in the home, before committing to keep your Anatolian. I don't think any of us could ask for a better person than Willie who works with the LSGDs on a daily basis, to be able to give you the real, actual, day to day experience of what these creatures really need to not only function safely, but to do what every genetic fiber in their being is telling them to do.

For someone who prefers to not be the pack leader, does not have the desire or mindset to do obedience, I honestly, from the bottom of my heart, implore you to consider the long term ramifications of keeping this breed of dog as a pet.

Again, I commend your ability to rethink everything which has taken place over the past few days... It gives me hope that this situation just might have the best outcome for the animals I know you care deeply about.

Sonia, I haven't posted to this thread because I don't really think that you are truly ready to hear what has been said here by anyone & it has pretty much all been said.

But I do want to mention that living with multiple dogs that have to be kept seperate is not an easy life. It means miltiple times daily with each dog, training(which I know that you said you don't want to do & can't imagine having dogs & not doing obedience & establishing me as leader with respect & trust from my dogs) walks or other exercise, down time together with each dog, etc, etc. etc. I have two dogs now (had 3 that didn't get along 2 years ago)that it took almost 2 years before I could have them living together & I still have to be vigilent as a fight can break out if I don't heed the warning signs. My dogs live in the house with me. Keeping dogs crated seperately in different rooms & rotating regularly is a fact of life for many of us that have or have had multiple dogs, especially high drvie working dogs. Let me just mention here that it gets old fast. The average dog lives about 12 years. That's a LONG time to live this way. Not to mention the increased stress level not to error. If you do error & don't close a door tightly, or a crate tightly or whatever & a dog gets out, you have a potential fight. And it does happen sometimes, as we are human & errors happen, no matter how hard we try to prevent them. Breaking up dogs fights & living constantly with the potential of having one on an ongoing basis is stressful & not relaxing. Ask anyone here that lives or has lived that way.

I hope that you give this alot of thought.

Good luck with your dogs.

 Quote: Sonya Anderson

This dog can clearly see my weaknesses, why is he starting to show what I perceive to be submissive behavior? Perhaps that is part of the Anatolian genetically hard wired instinct; i.e. the human may be incompetent but if they keep pushing let them think they are winning for the time being.

Here are a few quotes from the ASD rescue:

If one thing is true about the Anatolian Shepherd Dog it is that they take life very seriously and do not view or react to situations as a Golden Retriever, Doberman or other large breed would. Their survival skills are keener, and they are still a very primitive breed, bred to protect livestock.

Anatolians will “challenge” their owner for leadership at some time. This is frightening to the owner and must be handled correctly and immediately. Changing the dog’s thought pattern and reinforcing leadership with verbal controls can be effective, such as commanding a sit and down position when possible. If a challenge is not handled immediately, the dog may dominate you and be impossible to control. This challenge could be in the form of raising lips and showing teeth with hackles raised, a threatening growl, not letting the owner out of the house, and threatening the owner when the dog is corrected, all making the owner fearful of their own dog.

ASD Rescue Network

 Quote: anne jones

But I do want to mention that living with multiple dogs that have to be kept separate is not an easy life. It means miltiple times daily with each dog, training....
walks or other exercise, down time together with each dog, etc, etc. etc.

Anne said it in a nutshell.

This thread has been on my mind since I first read it last night. Living with ONE young, driven dog is enough work. At a bare minimum she takes about 4 hours a day of exercise, training and play just to keep her from going insane. Any less than that she almost immediately becomes skittish and hyperactive.

Its not even enough to really keep her fulfilled! The days that I have more time are ALL about her. Now I'm looking into finding something for her to do as a "job", which I suspect will take at least an additional 4 to 6 hours a week of training, depending on what I pick.

How can you successfully have a dog with these needs, in a home with a dog that also needs time, when you will *never* be able to double up?

I can't even imagine how you could ever achieve more than the bare minimum.

Even if you can keep it up and have lifelong success keeping them from killing each other, is it really fair to the animals to only be able to provide them with a level of attention that will simply keep them from going nuts?

Even with the most love you could ever think of giving, its not going to be enough.

The Anatolian is one, with a life expectancy of about ten or eleven.

The Aussie is five with a life expectancy of twelve to fifteen.

This means that if both of them live to a ripe old age, the young working dog will have spent his whole life in and out of a crate, just getting enough attention to not go crazy. And that's IF you can keep it up, which MOST people would not be able to do.

No matter how much love there is in the home its just not fair.

I was only thinking...if the Anatolian is only one....no wonder he seems to be settling in fine...he hasn't even hit stride for terrible teens! This is just the beginning of your thrill ride. I really don't see this ending well at all if you try to keep these dogs in the same house.

I belong to several Homesteading forms, and like I said, regularly advise the people there on their dogs and training methods.
I have pondered asking them to join this board, to see if Sonya might continue to be swayed as she has been....and again I thank you Sonya for listening.
Anyway, I was over on one of the other boards and this post caught my eye...This is a real post from a real board....I thought it was interesting. The Anatolian here was displaying the typical attitude that the true working dogs have, and I say "good boy." There are actually problems with "human predators believe it or not...times are hard, and it's not uncommon to have stock stolen by humans that are hungry.
This is just one post, I can supply several of my friends that live and work with these dogs daily.........

 Quote:

We visited a farm in Northern Oregon recently, to look at a heritage breed of pig we are probably going to start raising this summer.

The farm owner introduced us to his 160 pound livestock gaurdian dog, Buddy, while he was safely confined in a fence.

We spent a minute looking at pigs in the barnyard, then went out to the field to meet some boars. Buddy apparently had had enough with being patient about our presense, and we were suddenly aware of the fact that he had jumped the fence and was running towards us full speed.

I haven't been afraid of a dog in a while. Neither has my partner. We were both scared s***less at the idea of this 160 pound monster eating us alive (the sounds he was making made us believe that was his intention). It's his job to protect his herds, and he made it clear we were a threat.

Farm owner managed to wrestle Buddy to the ground - by throwing his entire body on the dog - and instructed us to walk slowly to the pasture gate. We escaped with nothing more than a good adrenaline rush.

Farm owner said he can't really recommend this breed in the pure blood form as they are so aggressively protective. He did say that his last (female) livestock guardian dog had a bit of great pyrenees crossed in, was quite a bit smaller than her fully able to breed male replacement, and wasn't nearly as difficult to deal with when human visitors came around.

Buddy was tied up behind the fence for the remainder of our visit.

The farm has no predation problems! Imagine that! They also go through A LOT of dog food.

This is a link to the site.
permaculture forms

Just one example, and supports my earlier statement of the crossing these dogs onto the Pyrs

Willie

The Anatolian is always in a protection mode even though he does not appear so; everything is a threat until proven otherwise. They have no sense of humor concerning protection and cannot turn it on or off for the convenience of the owner

ASD Rescue network

But but, Sonya said the breed is able to discern the real threats and make the right decisions all on it's own!

You mean it isn't so!?!?!?!?!?
Head slap, who would have thunk it?

 Quote: barbara schuler

You have come a long way since Friday night/Saturday morning and I sincerely commend you for that. In light of this fact, I ask you continue to read and re-read the advice you've been given, especially Willie's most recent about keeping the LSGD in the home, before committing to keep your Anatolian. I don't think any of us could ask for a better person than Willie who works with the LSGDs on a daily basis, to be able to give you the real, actual, day to day experience of what these creatures really need to not only function safely, but to do what every genetic fiber in their being is telling them to do.

I wasn’t going to mention this, I was just going to say “thanks” and let it be done, but in fact is at least one of the things she said was blatantly inaccurate. When I said this dog fires off serious warning barks every few days if he sees something really unusual this was her reply:

 Quote: willie tilton

This dog is too young to "work" LSGDs don't mature enough to "work" until they are 2 years minimum. What this dog is showing by his reactions is an unstable, insecure reaction to unknown stimuli. He doesn't feel that his leader will protect him, (you haven't been able to from the Aussie in his mind) And so he is running about in an unhealthy state of mind.

Numerous sources will state these dogs start guarding at a year old on average, and some will start as young as 6 months. Some of these dogs have taken on human and canine predators physically at 8 months of age. Willie states this dog can’t be guarding until he is 2 years old and he must simply be reacting to his terrible home life and incompetent owner. That is complete BS.

This breed is different and I really need to be getting my advice from competent Anatolian/Kangal/Akbash owners. I need to learn what is “normal” for them and what is not. One trait that differs from most dogs is the guarding of objects, if they have something (i.e. food stolen off the counter, or even something as mundane as a dropped pen or cell phone they have a momentary interest in) and you try to take it away from them they let you know loud and clear that is NOT going to happen (a growl that will instantly turn into really ferocious barking/snapping if you are stupid enough to persist). The first time it happened it really shocked me, since then I have talked to a vet that owns several Akbash and also read articles that say that is perfectly normal and expected behavior and you cannot force the issue. The proper way of handling it is to coax the dog away from the object using whatever works (treats, a toy, whatever) or if possible negotiate a trade. There is no expectation that they will follow a command to come, it has to be negotiated.

Things like that are really important to know. A lot of obedience people would say the dog needs to be worked/corrected until he stops the behavior because they don’t understand it is a normal trait. Taking that incorrect approach would lead to nothing but problems and could turn disasterous. Now that I understand it is normal and not the sign of a crazy out of control dog I handle the situation correctly.

I know Willie has stated several times these dogs are really really difficult and dominant but I live with him and he really isn’t that hard. I have had difficult dogs, dogs that pushed constantly, turned everything into a little battle, hyper, prey driven, and often refused to listen to anything short of a two-by-four upside the head (figuratively speaking of course). This dog is learning and becoming more cooperative every day, he really feeds off of praise and attention (which he obviously didn’t get much of with the sheep) and is figuring out that by cooperating he gets more of it.

 Quote: Anne Jones

But I do want to mention that living with multiple dogs that have to be kept seperate is not an easy life.

Yes, very true. I did it for years with two male Dobies. I know exactly what it is all about and yes it is work. I also did Doberman rescue for several years and took in a couple of dozen dogs some of which had been starved or severely abused. Those dogs had to be routinely separated as well.

I need to find websites that can offer breed specific information and advice, this is a waste of time. Thanks again, I am out of here.

This is really childish of me, but I can't help myself:

Don't let the door hit ya where the good Lord split ya!

You have had the opportunity here just about as close to free expert advice as you are gonna get anywhere, especially from Willie. Will R and Connie could have been great resources for you too.

In fact, there are rather many veiws of this thread with a relatively low number of members replying for this forum. I'm guessing its because you have turned around and completely alienated nearly everyone who has tried to help you, and most people just don't want to deal with it. I have NEVER seen anyone be so snarky and rude on a board that is not anonymous.

All Just because you wanted to hear what you want to hear.

I have a feeling that its easy for anybody who comes across you to figure out why you prefer to surround yourself with dogs.

I hope to God that this works out okay for the dogs involved.