There has been three very good dog trainers...instructors mentioned here. All are notable!!
But, remember. Dog training is a personal endeavor. it is a relationship between you and your dog. As such go learn from some of the best, understand the differences, and go out and gain as much knowledge as possible from everyone available. Then go do the work and adjust it for your needs, develope your own style and system. With the help and assistance of knowledgeable instructors (I use the word instructor here because if you need some help some excellent dog trainers can't teach you but a good instructor can!) adjust, refine, and hone your own work. The biggest downfall I see in the sport of dog training is the attempt to train a dog in this persons or that persons way. Not that you don't begin with examples and working through the basics with the help of others insightful experiences....no need to reinvent the wheel here....but the skills are very much kinestetic. You have to practice, you have to run with it and become skilled in your way.

That said: In the sport of schutzhund recognize there are two broadly based groups of dog trainers.
Those that avoid conflict within their dogs and between their dogs and themselves and those that create it and use it to acheive their training goals.
Many of the classic older German trainers fall within the later group. Sometimes this methodology is very difficult to master.
Sometimes training of the ....for lack of better term...new age...doesn't mesh well together with the use of conflict.
Now I won't say that there isn't some cross over in the generalized styles (Flinks being one of them I believe applies it well in some instances) but it takes a lot of experience & expertise to identify where one style can meet the other.
This thread just brings me back to a repetetive discussion I have frequently with novice dog trainers. That it is never one trainer vs. another in regards to what knowledge is available. Soaking up as much information and being able to catagorize it and distill it into your technique is how people like Ellis, Flinks, and Balabanov put their "style" together. Then to top it off they happened to be competent instructors/coaches.

Kevin, hit the nail on the head, as usual. You have to pick the pieces of what you learn form these trainers & make them your own & what works for you & your dogs. I have been fortunate enough to attend both a 5 day Flinks seminar & a 3 day seminar with Michael Ellis. Both have tons of info for you to digest. Bernhard helps lay a good foundation in drive & focus & Mike helps you micro manage every little step of action that you take. He helps break down each piece & name it & communicate it with your dog. I have used both in training my dogs & would attend other seminars that they offer. I haven't had the opportunity to attend one of Ivan's yet.

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IMHO, the major difference is the point of focus. With Flinks, the focus is on the toy. With Balabanov, it's the handler's face.

What I got from the Balabanov tapes was not a "point of focus" issue. Rather, the objective was to teach your dog to play WITH YOU, and only you, with whatever YOU want to play with...and that THAT is the best reward. PLAYING with YOU.

From that basic concept...you can make the dog do what YOU want (focus on a face, on your shoes, on someone else's face) "in drive"...with VERY frequent communication between you and your dog...while your dog waits for the release command, that let's him play with you.

Play is the strongest, fastest and best way to develop a bond with your dog.

Also, the tapes describe (an) easy and effective method(s) of teaching your pup to "out".

Hi all,
I was doing some research into Ivan BALABANOV method of training and found this previous post. I would like to add something. I'll give you alittle bit of background first. I have a 15 week old female GSD Im raising for a future in some kind of sport. AT this point I'm not sure which way we are going to go. I am currently building the bond between Mierra and Me and laying the groundwork for rules,respect,and cementing the idea that all good things come through me and I am to be looked to for leadership. I think we are coming along pretty good. She has good food drive and good prey drive. Certain items she goes absolutely nuts for such as a ripped up piece of felt on a lunge whip and a certain stuffed dog animal. I think she actually is trying to kill it because she always goes for the neck and shakes it insistantly... (jury is still out on if this is good for her) anyway. Up until the point when I purchased and viewed Ivans Obedience with out Conflict DVD's the game and clear communication, I had been a firm believer in Berhnard's techniques. I have 3 of his DVD's to compare to. Not taking anything away from Berhnard. He is an excellent trainer and has the credentials to prove it. I just saw a fundimental difference in their techniques. The main one being when Berhard builds drive he actually will make the dog miss the item and also he encourages to develop the grip is to pull the ball from the dogs mouth. Also in the Building drive force and grip I remember them saying if you can pull the toy while the dog is "in your arms" this really builds drive. And now one of Ivan's rules for the GAME is never to pull the toy away from the dog and always keep in view. If you do these things thats a breech of trust between you and the dog. I'm not sure which way I am leaning. And since these are part of both trainers fundimental principles I dont want to teach my pup a little bit of both for fear it may be counterproductive. I do like the idea that the dog gets no drive satifaction unless it comes from the trainer through the toy and thats the only way. Ivan say's he likes the dog to get the toy and retrieve it and in the dogs mind he is saying okay here is your toy I have returned it can we play the GAME? Which requires the trainers participation. .Thus the dog gets to let off some steam through drive.. I was particularly impressed and saw the game in action with one particular Mal in his video. Not sure if it was Ivans but this dog was amazing. Very beautiful and powerful. Ivan would hold the tug and the dog would just rip it outta his hand but moments later the dog would return it to Ivan in his hands so he could play some more.. Each time Ivan would just mearly hold the tug lightly and the dog would rip it out only to return it.. Anyway... I'm interested in what others might think and what fundementals they are applying to thier training regiment. Thanks in advance

This is an old thread - with thats said - I suggest that people focus on what Kevin has written. That is there are a number (not a lot) of good trainers out there. Go to as many as you can and learn to analyze your dogs temperament and drive. Then take what works best for your dog.

One of the things I like about my job is it allows me to go and listen to new trainers. I go in with an open mind. Rather than challenge a new method or idea I prefer to ask questions - to see if I am on the same page as the trainer or to see if I am missing something that I had heard before. The beauty of this is that I constantly find myself having a little conversation in my head that goes like this " Dam thats good - why didn't I think of that" So the bottom line is just about the time I start to get cocky I have an epiffany like this - it brings me back to earth.

The day you think you have found the master of all dog trainers my comment to you would be " you have only been in dogs for 3 or 4 years - lets see what you think 30 years from now"

I would recommend everyone go to a Michael Ellis seminar or have Kevin come for a seminar.

Thanks Ed for your input. I'd like to thank you for all you have done for me as far as educating me on the finer points of raising and training of the GSD breed. This forum is such a great source of information. I totally agree with you on checking out different trainers and their techniques. Thats why I bought the Balabanov DVD's. I was going to go with your 4 hour obedience DVD but I thought I already own like 9 of your productions I might want to check out something else. And because of the high marks everyone gave Balabanov in here I figured I give it a try.. I'm glad I did.. I really enjoy watching a professional work thier dogs. I hope I can be 1/4 as good as either of the trainers mentioned in this thread. I think "In my arms" is an ivaluable tool for me, and the GAME concept is very interesting. I've been trying that method for 4 days now and I just got back from one of the best training sessions I've had with my dog. She's only 3 months old but she seems to sort of grasp the concept. Shes a little weak in her grip but I think that should come in time. She seems intelligent and has a good deal of prey drive. I was amazed when I introduced her to the "out" command. I swear she knew to release the toy if that is at all possible. I'm not tooting my own horn but I am giving the GSD breed a big thumbs up.. She surprises me on a daily basis. She can recognize a frisbee by name. Bring about 75 percent of the time, sitz, at Platz. Athough Platz she gives me grief about. She looks at me and today she kinda whiny barked and did it. you think thats a sign of non cooperation? Anyway... I'm going to continue the training and I'll give updates periodically.. Thanks again!!!