Quote: connie sutherland

Hi, Lisa,

I'm not jumping on you at all when I say that your post is loaded with facts about human digestion that have little or nothing to do with canids, as well as a few half-truths. They are all common misconceptions, so I want to clear them up on this widely-read board.

Egg whites shouldn't be fed raw without the yolk, which compensates for the loss of biotin. A "search" here would lead to many threads explaining this in detail.

The whole paragraph about grains is applicable to humans and not to dogs, with their short, fast, enzyme-based systems and their inability to produce grain-digesting enzymes such as amylase in the quantities needed to process regular grain-heavy foods. (Think of a wolf, to go back to basics, and picture him raiding the wheat field. )

If by "therapeutic additives" to non-organically raised meat you mean antibiotics, then "therapeutic" is a misplaced term.


Raw poultry does present a risk to people with immune-system challenges. They should not eat it, and dog poop should be picked up and disposed of, no matter what the dogs are fed. No one should allow their dogs to lick their mouths or their children's mouths, no matter what the dogs are fed. Dogs are scavengers; dogs eat poop; dogs lick their butts


And yes, there is absolutely some risk from eating raw bones, even the right kind of RMB http://leerburg.com/feedingarawdiet.htm#RMB

There is risk in any type of diet you decide to feed. There have been hundreds of pet food recalls over the last decade -- hundreds, in fact, last year! There is salmonella-infected kibble. It goes on and on.

We all have to decide what risks we believe are acceptable as we strive to feed our dogs biologically appropriate (for dogs, not humans) food.

The diet you are giving doesn't sound bad to me. As I mentioned earlier, with a few tweaks (getting rid of all of most of that grain, for example), it could be better. But you are obviously making huge efforts to feed your dogs well, and I think you'd welcome some better information from the sources posted here.

You're in the right place if you want to learn about raw feeding, or about canine nutrition, period.

Hi Connie,

You are debating the nutritional requirements/opinions for the dog with some Veterinarians & established authors. I obtained my info from the following sources:
1.) Better Food for Dogs Grant Nixon DVM, David Bastin & Jennifer Ashton
2.) The Veterinarians Guide to Natural Remedies for Dogs By Martin Zucker & Carvel Tiekert DVM
3.) Barkers Grub-Rudi Edilati
4.) The Whole Dog Journal
5.) Dr. Doug Woods-Woods Animal Clinic (One of my vets)

I have not gotten the chance to look at those links, I will definitely check them out. I mean no disrespect to you whatsoever, however when I listen to and follow someones advise I always ask where they obtained their info (which you probably already gave me in the links) and what are their credentials? Are you a canine nutritinist? Or do you obtain your info from books & websites, like I do? If it is the latter we obviously read different books! You do have the respect of many members on this board so that alone speaks for itself.
I will agree with you on one point, my dogs don't need all the grains. I use the grain like filler, the protein part gets expensive. I started off cooking completely homemade, however it became too time consuming. The way I look at it,what I am currently feeding is better than them eating processed dog food, at least I know what is going into their food.

PS-My icons still don't work!

Hi, Lisa,

Whole Dog Journal (and Mary Strauss, who just finished a several-month series in it on feeding raw and home-cooked) is a great source.

I have to say that nothing like this: "Dogs need 50-60% grain," came from any recent WDJ.

All the points you posted have been discussed on this board dozens or hundreds of times (with authoritative backup). I would strongly urge that you read some of the threads in this "All-Natural Diet," section: http://www.leerburg.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/ubb/postlist/Board/12

Everything below the Common Sense sticky are threads about natural feeding. Pick any thread; they are all useful to someone learning about raw.

I'd also recommend again that you refer to at least one of the links I provided to articles by the Leerburg owners. Even better, I would recommend that you do both that and read a couple of the books I linked you to, to supplement the books you posted titles for about cooked food. (Read something about raw diets before making statements, that is. )

The board is a place for discussion and questions, but it works a lot better if the information supplied in response is at least glanced at before your next post.

Yes, I have researched canine nutrition; I still do, daily. And yes, I have completed the small animal nutrition coursework. But I also gave sources. I certainly don't expect anyone to take my word as gospel.

Mary Strauss, for example, and Cindy Rhodes (here) know a lot more than I do. There are no recognized or authoritatively certified "canine nutritionists" yet (so the title is strictly self-granted). There are veterinary nutritionists: veterinarians with a PhD in animal nutrition who are certified by the American College of Veterinary Nutrition. VERY few of them exist, and most of them work for, or are affiliated with, the pet food industry, and got their degrees in conjunction with that work.

Vets have usually had about two weeks animal nutrition, subsidized by Hills.

You list a few references (such as your vet's name ... ?), but it works better if you ask the question.... say, about grains or about egg white, and give your source with it, rather than listing several books and (I assume) saying that everything you stated came from somewhere in them.

Ask whatever you like, or bring up points that you have seen in a book or web site and provide the link or citation, and you will almost certainly receive answers with similar authoritative backup.

I would ask that you NOT make statements like "Dogs need 50-60% grains" and present them as fact. Many posts later you say this: "I use the grain like filler, the protein part gets expensive."

EXACTLY!

Meanwhile you have posted that as fact on a board that has a membership of 11,000 people, some of whom are here in part to learn about the "All-Natural Diet for Dogs," as the forum you're posting in is entitled, based on http://www.leerburg.com/diet.htm (the Leerburg raw diet).


Again, PLEASE, unless you are posting questions or your experiences or authoritative statements with links, I request (consider this a friendly moderator's request ) that you read some of the information you've been given before you post statements such as "dogs need 50-60% grains" as facts in the "All-Natural Diet for Dogs" forum. At the very least, take a minute to read http://leerburg.com/feedingarawdiet.htm

It's a Q&A about the diet fed at the Leerburg Kennels.

No one here wants to force anyone else to feed fresh raw food! You are feeding what you want to feed, and putting a lot of thought into it (for which you are to be commended). But please read a little of what you have already received in the way of answers before re-posting about the same subject.

Thank you!

 Quote: lisa harrison

I will agree with you on one point, my dogs don't need all the grains. I use the grain like filler, the protein part gets expensive. ... The way I look at it,what I am currently feeding is better than them eating processed dog food, at least I know what is going into their food.

I agree 100% with both statements!

The kibble companies also "use the grain as filler because the protein part gets expensive." But then they try to say it's somehow better! It's magic!

So what the dog would eat in nature (dead prey, with bones and organs) turns into wheat, barley, oats, and other cereals.

 Quote: lisa harrison

I obtained my info from the following sources:
....
4.) The Whole Dog Journal ....

Good source. I like WDJ very much and recommend it often.

Mary Strauss, WDJ's food researcher and writer, has a web site at DogAware.com.

Info on home diets: http://www.dogaware.com/dogfeeding.html#Balance
QUOTE from that link:
Grains. In general, I do not recommend feeding grains, as they seem to be related to a number of health problems in dogs, including allergies, arthritis, IBD, seizures, etc. However, if your dog is healthy and appears to have no problems with grains, it's OK to feed them in small amounts (no more than about 1/5 of the total diet). Remember that dogs have no nutritional need for carbohydrates. END

The same web page will explain fish oil, raw bones and meat, etc.

If you click on "books," you will find the list of books that I linked you to earlier on the Leerburg site.

 Quote: Connie Sutherland

To the O.P.:

Sorry to have gone so far afield!

Was the pork question answered satisfactorily?

 Quote: Connie Sutherland

And from Wikipedia, why game meat isn't rendered safe even by freezing -- because it's a different species of trichina worm.

QUOTE: Freezing wild game meats, unlike freezing pork products, even for long periods of time, may not effectively kill all worms.

This is because the species of trichinella that typically infects wild game is more resistant to freezing than the species that infects pigs. END

Hi Connie! Sorry, I was out of town since Fri... Anways, yes, you did answer my question about the pork (I'm not the OP per se, but I revived the thread from Jan) and now I have another question regarding trichinia. My brother in law, gave me some Elk. It's been frozen for a few months. Should I lightly cook this meat before feeding? Thanks!

 Quote:

Hi Connie! Sorry, I was out of town since Fri... Anways, yes, you did answer my question about the pork (I'm not the OP per se, but I revived the thread from Jan) and now I have another question regarding trichinia. My brother in law, gave me some Elk. It's been frozen for a few months. Should I lightly cook this meat before feeding? Thanks!

Thrichinellosis is a parasite that infects only carnivorous/omnivorous species as far as I know. Not feeding pigs other pigs or tainted meat has really helped rid pork of this parasite over the last decade.

From website listed below:

 Quote:

Trichinellosis, also called trichinosis, is caused by eating raw or undercooked meat of animals infected with the larvae of a species of worm called Trichinella. Infection occurs commonly in certain wild carnivorous (meat-eating) animals but may also occur in domestic pigs.

http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/dpd/parasites/trichinosis/factsht_trichinosis.htm



Elk, and deer are NOT affected by this parasite. They may be affected by others. Now if you wanted to feed Bear....I might say no go, or that you might want to cook it.

I have fed elk and deer as a signifigant portion of my dog's diet with no problem (after freezing). I know many others that do as well. If you wanted to get particular you could contact the CO in your area and find out what types of parasites they may carry and if they are affected by freezing.

It is all about comfort levels. Feeding wild meat from healthy grazers taken by hunters is well within my comfort levels for a dog with a healthy immune system. I always freeze it first.

Jennifer, thank you for the links and the answer! The Elk I received has been frozen for a few mos, so I feel safe feeding it to my dog. Thanks again...

I would start with small amounts. It can be rich (read loose stools)if the dog is not used to it. That was my expereince in the begining anyway.