Ok so a bit of background for this question... I am training endurance for odor searches. I have been keeping my dog in a down and then walking in the direction she is facing AWAY from and throwing her drive toy out into the snow. This way she has no idea where it has gone (but I do) and has to actually search for it rather than run right to it.

I have found that when she is close to where the ball landed she will search and give signals that she is on target when she is nose deep in close by foot prints but not actually on the target. Let me a bit more clear in my description of the situation. I know where the ball is and I can see the hole in the snow that it created, close by there are other depressions in the snow as well, mostly from foot prints, but these foot prints were about three feet away from the hole that the ball is sitting in; and all around the ball-hole is fresh, flat, clean snow.

I will see the behavior change in the dog when she hits the scent cone but she will not follow it right to the source. She moves up along the scent cone and then gets "stuck" (so to speak) in a foot print; tail's going, she's digging for the toy, etc.

My theory is that the scent being created by the odor source (in this case the ball) is being cooled by the ambient air temperature and sticking close to the ground (in this case the snow) and being further cooled. Then the draft in the air is moving the scent along the ground and it is being trapped in a new location (the foot prints) acting like a cup to hold the heavy, cold scent. Am I correct or am I way out to lunch here?

Wow, I've been asking myself the same thing these past few days...

Love to hear thoughts on this matter. My pup does the same thing as your girl Brad. He can't seem to zero in on his scented toy in the snow and keeps circling frantically in his own footpaths.

hi Yuko and Bradley,

true the scent tend to go down in the snow couse of the low tmeperature.
very possible that the foot prints hole giving a"window" to the scent cone pool alike and there your dogs can scent it.
sometimes theres pockets of abit warmer air flowing spilling like slowley from old holes in the ground.
another efect of the snow is that is that couse of the multy spaces between the flexes and the low temp its "swalow" down scents insted of the low thou wide scatering of scent that occour when aromatic scent hits cool earth.

you should gradulley intreduce your dogs the effect and than give him tolls to search work in it.

ifirst whould just give tham targets with big ammount of scents that just liyng on the ground maybe cover abit with somthing (not snow) -and not sanck in it you better left it there some time if its not snowing.
the idea here is to just give the dog the clue that scent swalow down on snow and that it should be very thorow and pointy on the snow.

second stage is to pot the target (again, big scent ammount target) in the ground not to deep and digg some holes very near it again better with some time the target is left there if its possible. incourege your dog to snif in thos holes the idea is to get the dog sniff in the hole and push snow with hes nose toward the target while sniffing gradully you take the holes farther and farther than the target untill the dog learns to push holes in the snow with hes nose while snifing - just like aplow. and eventually to initiate thos plows in hemself.

the point is that by that plowing (hope iuse the right word) your dog nose will hit big speaces in the snow and find deep scent molekols (itryied to avvoide that awfoul word spelling but it came up eventually) pools.

dont forget to give some higher than the snow and upon the snow hides from once in awhile for the dog wont forget the ordinery searches.

of course your dog should first learn how to work in cool environment first you start with it.

hope imanged to help sefi.s

by the way im realy envy of you guys due to all that snow it hasnt been snowing around here for years execpt jerusalem, the hightes and lebanon.

theres nothing like agreat frustrating day of searching in the snow training...

sefi.s
israel

Sefi,

Thanks, I appreciate the advise. My dog is already at the standard that you have described, i/e. plowing the snow on her own, with her nose. One thing I am very glad you brought up is the statement about the air that is already being "held" in the footprints and other depressions on the ground; it's something I hadn't considered and will now take into consideration from here on out.

I'm glad I'm not crazy... that the placement of scent in relation to the ground (high to the ground or low to the ground) is affected by temperature.

So, from a training standpoint, when the dog is on these "false targets" should I give her an 'off' command and redirect the search, or let her figure it out on her own? Thus far I have been waiting it out until the dog eventually finds the toy on her own, hoping to increase her confidence and level of experience. Also, I really hold back on the praise. I don't say a word or give eye contact (if she lifts her head and looks at me) as long as she is working. When I know she is on the "real target" I will give encouragement to dig it up and get to the toy.

Sefi, what is a reasonable goal that I should have in mind as far as the dog's endurance goes? (Touching on a different post I know. ) So far I have gotten a 30 minute search with one find. I hope to increae this to between a 45-60 minute search before the weather starts to warm up, then readjust my training again for the heat of the summer... thoughts?

you should engienre sucsess, while your target is that the dog will plow from the side horiznale to the toy and get it.

you should enginere that your dog will get to the toy whyle she demonctrat the kind of search you want.
when ever your dog finds rather its explosives ball or whatever she "take apicture" of the last thing she done before finding it the way it was hide and another miloin other things.
of course that for it will imprint in her it should accour afew times with the same or similer pictures aftern awhile the "album is rearranged and photos that where took just once kicked of for new ones.

if she has hard time get to the exact size of the ball iwhould increse extra scent and size to the toy that means that if you uses medium size rubber ball use first agiant size ball (iv seen at leerburg site huge great looking balls for sale.
you can encorage her from time to time when shes on hard scent and keep on the right way just dont make it ahabit.

the most dangerus response for your training is that the dog will
folow the right scent and leave it after awhile of search by her own.
so you mast engenire the way of the search will be just give it ahard thouths and try to predict what will happen to the scent molekols (hate that word) consider the wind and temperature effects and try to predict what your dog will do and from where she will get the scent. its hard in the begining but by remark your own mistakes its get better each time.

another stage ididnt mention earlier to start with her is just by threwing the ball while she see it flow and senk to the snow and than let her get it - iguess and hope you allready did it but ihade to make sure.

about thos false targets you have to be sure in 100% they are false to corect.
in the toy search you have the advantage that if the dog false indicate he will probably wont get the toy.

the problam can ocorr while the dog is false and by that get the toy be aware of that but its has very slight chance to happen if you work on sterile area.

about your endurance goal- that should be determant by the dog indevidual and the operative requierment.
you should have the dog abit more endurance than what you really means than hade back i mean by that that if you need in operative work about 20 minuets than you should aim for about 30 minuetes in training. if you aim for 30 minuets in training and you get your dog work 35 for the ball thats great just dont forget to head abit back when you go to the next stage.

ican only say that the longest and best that ihade seen is one hour of very intensiv search with one find no stops which is very very good and very rare for adog to work well in it.
iguess there is no bad endurance and the farther the dog gets better you got better search as long as you dont acsoudurate and that you wont forget give some short or medium searches randomly.

another thing to take in mind is not to give the dog to search small areas to much time to often that could lead to over thoruw of the dog and slowness in the search work.
you should do it once ion awhile but usally move from one area to another after reasnoable ammount of time or give the dog to search farther on.


sefi.s