Just wanted to hear some opinions on SchH vs Ring. What do you all think are pros/cons of each and/or why did you select either to train?

while I don't mind schutzhund, and if I had a dog to spare, the time and space just to keep one strictly for that, I'd probably dabble in schutzhund just to change things up. However for me, Your various ring sports, FR,BR, and reality like PSA and ASR (no longer alive) are just more exciting, IMPO present more of a challenge and are just packed with action. Schutzhund will bore the hell out of me if I'm not out competing it's definately not exciting to watch FOR ME. It looks to regimented and rehearsed. With everyone so stiff. Thats just my perspective and my opinion, I don't knock anyone who is into or involved in schutzhund, as Austin "Danger" Powers once said, "It's just not my bag baby!!"

Hey Chris, thanks for your reply. The reason I was asking, and I am totally new to either sport, so am un-biased, is I've heard arguments from both sides and I'd like to learn more.

I've also heard about SchH being very boring and having un-realistic heel work, but I've also heard that Ring dogs have un-realistic bite work. If you are trying to fight someone off and your dog does a leg bite & grabs a pant leg, what good is that? Or that usually a person's main weapon in a fight is it's arm, so disabling an arm (SchH) helps quite a bit, or that the frontal attack/chest bite is useless. Also that the object guard in Ring can lead to an un-trustworthy dog around certain objects or can lead to food agression.

*AGAIN*, I'm in no way defending/attacking either sport. I just want to learn more and want experienced opinions. I've only been doing SchH for a few mos, but Ring looks REALLY fun. I'd like to do both if I could, and make my own decision then, but that's years away.

I think the "realism" arguements are weak on both ends. They are both sports. Because one sport requires targeting a sleeve and the other has more options as to where they can bite doesn't make them "real".

The good dogs in either sport will bite for real, and the rest are taught exercises that look good. Even though my wife is an attorney I'd rather not ever find out if my dog would bite outside of the sport. My older one (thanks Cindy) has targeted nothing but the sleeve for years. Last week our Helper decided to knee her in the chest to back her up in the blind and piss her off. Well he got some marks to show for it on the leg from my sleeve happy rehearsed schutzhund dog.

Ring has different exercises and looks fun, but I have access to very good Sch trainers, and even if it is repetative, I like it. Ring has a few more exercises to change things up, but training an object guard for competition, and training a side or back transport still require repetition, and is a trained exercise. A really good dog on the object guard brings a whole new level to the exercise in ring, same as a really good dog in schutzhund will bring something extra too its H&B or the long bite. The rest have just learned an exercise and perform it.

I have Zero experience with PSA, but i hear people talking about how real it is, and they really need to work on the car jacking sequence. Maybe its just me, but how does putting a "car jacking" name to it make it real? It's still an exercise, and my dogs ride in a crate, so there goes that scenerio ever happening. You can test for different scenerios no matter what you train for. Just because SchH seems to be a rather sterile environment in a trial setting doesn't mean training needs to be that way.

Ring sports do have a lot of variability, and looks like lots of fun. I have only watched this, never trained for it, so my opinions are based on limited observation. I'm the opposite of Chris, i'll dabble in Ring, I like the variability, but I do like Schutzhund. Training is training IMO, whether for perfect heeling or on object guard, the time I spend with my dogs is everything.

Find some good trainers around you, and do what you have a good time at. Joining a Sch club with a bad atmosphere surrounding all the members just because someone told you teaching an object guard would create an unstable dog (I don't believe this BTW) for ring, will not be pleasant for you or your dog. Just like doing Ring because someone told you its more "real" than schutzhund and you can't find anyone to train with isn't going to be very fulfilling either.

So there are some differences, but either is what you make of it and the team you have to work with. It can be bad or something you look forward to all day.

Alex, in ring sports your dog is encouraged to be able to bite anywhere on the body. You also can have a upper body dog in Ring. Also, they can do very well. It's easier to have a mostly leg dog in ring, but not impossible nor discouraged to have an upperbody dog in Ring.

Also, in reality programs like American Protection and Patrol Dog Association Which is a new program, that has come recently but been in the planning for a long time. I was apart of the original concept, and then the present board of directors brought those concepts to reality and put it all on paper, got together and tested out the concepts with their dogs. It will be up and fully running by the end of the year, and at a location near you in 2008.
This was created to seperate protection work from Patrol work. ASR was a great program when it was alive, however it's major fault, that we advocated before it's break up was that trying to test at the same time for a dog capable of patrol work and protection work was too hard if not impossible. This program will offer reality testing in protection work. This will allow for the larger protection dogs to compete and have it fair to them. You can't add jumps to test a patrol dogs ability and ask a Cane Corso to do the same jump. So it is develped with 2 divisions. The Patrol division and the protection division.

The patrol division will be for LE officers as well as civilians who have dogs available from time to time or all the time for sale to LE and want to showcase what they have available, and display the capabilities of the dogs forsale for intrested parties to observe. The organization is seeking to recieve POST credit from various states so that officers competing can recieve certification if they desire when competing.

The patrol division was created with several LE officers on board with years of k9 experience.

Likewise the protection portion has been created with experienced protection training folks on board for that.

The patrol division will also have some detection awards that can be earned as well.

This program like your reality based programs all encourage the dogs ability to bite anywhere in addition to it's specific target areas. The best ring dogs will bite anywhere not just the legs. Above all, remember ring as well as schutzhund are all sports. Their for entertainment only. You can have a real protection dog compete, but in no way do either of these entities allow you to walk off a trial field with a "protection" dog. That takes further training off the "ring or SCH training" field.

~CHRIS DUHON

Chris,

The American Protection and Patrol Dog Association sounds like what i am looking for, is there a chance Ed will add a Forum for that on this site?

BTW, I just checked the website, and they are still in the process of getting all the rules for both divisions up. Just be patient and keep checking if it sounds like it intrests you and ALL the rules and standards will soon be up.

~CHRIS DUHON

Thanks guys for your replies. I guess it's really just a matter of personal taste. Look's like I'm gona have to make my own decision in a few years hahaha. Damn.

Schtz is a repetitive routine even a weak dog can get certified, even showlinedogs can get certified. The dog knows exactly what's comming whereas ring has much more variation in the way the excercises are executed and the dog needs more stamina, courage to pas into entry level. It takes 18 months to train a schtzdog to pas his entrylevel and 3 years to train a ringdog to go to compitition.

I decoy a bit for both and the force of inpact in ring tends to be much more intense

And for a legbite being les realistic. Here is a thought.

When defending yourself from a hit/bite you tend to present you're weaker arm for the dog to bite and your weapon is in your other hand. So the dog is in close poximity of the weapon. To stop the criminal the dog has to hang on. You can still run fast with a wounded arm.
A lg dog is farther away fro the arm and you'll be uot of ballance sio it is more difficult to harm the dog. Furthermore once wounded in the leg you are less likely to run fast

Greetings

Johan

 Quote: Johan Engelen

<snip>
And for a legbite being les realistic. Here is a thought.

When defending yourself from a hit/bite you tend to present you're weaker arm for the dog to bite and your weapon is in your other hand. So the dog is in close poximity of the weapon. To stop the criminal the dog has to hang on. You can still run fast with a wounded arm.
A lg dog is farther away fro the arm and you'll be uot of ballance sio it is more difficult to harm the dog. Furthermore once wounded in the leg you are less likely to run fast

Greetings

Johan

Hey Johan,

I don't know what your experience is as far as realistic value of a bite (not a challenge, i just don't know what you do). What you say does make sense but if a guy is bitten by a dog one area or another he is going down (unless you have a weak dog) i cant say i have let my dog go on a real bite but i am going to hazard a guess 90% (random number i picked out of thin air :-D) of the time you release a dog the suspect is going to be running away. So a upper body bite will take down the suspect just as much as a leg bite becouse the suspect isent going to be planning the extra 70 or 80 pounds extra and of course the handler shouldn't be to far behind. In my own personal opinion but i am not a fan of leg bites, the suspect has to much freedom of movement.

Eather way a good bite is going to take down the suspect no matter where it is on the body, well maybe not a hand bite.

On a side note i train my dog to bite on the back when the decoy is running away. Why? My dog hits the decoy with a solid force rather then hitting him and swinging him off balance the decoy goes strait down. As for the realistic value to that its a lot more frightening not seeing whats hurting you then seeing the dog. And i am planning on the face plant the suspect does to knock the wind out of him till i get up there.

(but i think this got a little off topic)

Alex, Good luck with picking your sport. I don't do any sports so i cant help you out like i would like, but good luck and my completely un-informed vote goes for French Ring :-D