Thursday is the next FR session. As long as the weather is good I'll be able to go as it is 2.5 hours one way for me to go train. (It is worth it) The coaching and decoys are top shelf!

Geoff, it sounds like you have a nice dog there, and you seem like you're doing all the right things with her and working with great people. I second Randy in saying, "Good groundwork!"

As I'm sure you already know, try not to anticipate a repeat on your next session! It's hard not to (really hard, sometimes!), but you'll throw your game off (and hers). But you sound like you're really together, so it should go well. I wouldn't be surprised if this is the last time this happens. Sure makes you respect 'em, though, doesn't it?

Good luck- she'll be great and you'll be proud. Keep us posted!

I'm with the other posters re: it being a frustration thing. That 10 minutes must have seemed like a lifetime. Hard on the dog, hard on you. I'd be interested to see how she does with the next same scenario.

Speaking from the purely personal protection training that my dog has so far received (not for sports), this is the way it went as far as OB and control during the bitework (everything that I'm going to list started and was done from the beginning of his training, on the bite suit):
1. a sit command was given, dog sits at my left side calmly.
2. decoy stands still or moves around, talking, sometimes confrontational, sometimes friendly, dog still sitting.
3. if decoy becomes agitated (at me) and starts moving in closer, I give a bark command ("watch"), dog stands up and strains toward decoy, barking
4. if decoy attacks the dog, offering the dog either leg or arm, I give a bite command and dog bites, dog bites what's offered. If nothing is offered, dog bites back or chest or anywhere he wants.
5. if decoy attacks me, I give the bite command, dog bites anywhere he wants, unless the decoy's arm comes up at me, then the dog attacks the arm or underarm. If the decoy gives no warning and attacks me instantly, there's no time to give the bite command, dog just bites the decoy, either from the original sit position or from the bark, depending on where we were at when decoy attacked.

The reason I'm saying this (keep in mind I know nothing about French Ring or the training involved) is that it surprised me that your dog was trained for 6 months without any ob during bitework, only prey drive, then expect it to calm before being given the bite. But what do I know

I'd sure like to hear more about OB being left out of the protection phase of training for a few months in sports. Is this normally the way it's done?

Geoff don't worry about it, she's a driven Malinois. My bitch did that crap all the time when she was learning the OB in Protection. She still does it if we are on the sidelines watching other dogs work, she will hit the end of the leash bouncing around, then turn back and snap at the leash. Its worse when she's on a prong because the "pain" from the prong intensifies aggression in a malinois/dutchie.

You need to slowly introduce the concept to her that if she does what you ask then she will get her bite. Start slow and short with MINIMAL control. Once she understands the concept, it is easy to extend the length of time. Her OB will be so beautiful that you will want to do ALL her OB during bitework because the drive is so much higher than just playing with a ball

But my warning to you is that if she has any amount of softness in her, which most female Mali's do, dont over-do the control work at a young age. I dont remember how old you said she was, but the thing that most people seem to screw up on is mis-reading their dog, thinking the dog is a hard dog/capable of all this advanced training (because when the dog is drive the dog will seem alot harder than they really are), then somewhere down the line they will stumble over a line where suddenly they are asking TOO MUCH permission for everything and acting too sensitive from the excessive control. You need to find the balance for your female, and sometimes let her go nuts to keep her confidence level high. Too much control in bitework can be just as bad as too little control.

As for why you weren't scared of her when her teeth came at you -- I dont understand why anyone would be scared of their own dog. Weak handlers may be scared of their own dog, and that is probably why they get bitten more often than a strong handler And don't be embarassed about the crazy drive -- people are jealous of your dogs drive, don't be embarassed about something that causes jealousy!!

I think it depends mostly on the dog Sandy. From what I've been able to figure, some dogs if introduced to ob. to soon become what someone called 'handler dependent'. ie. wouldn't be able to make a decision or move on their own and need their self esteem and confidence built up first. (And imo probably aren't fit for ppd anyway) And I suppose that the inverse is true, some dogs are so confident as it really is a matter of making sure that everybody is on the same page(so to speak) as the training progresses.
If I've got it wrong, I'm sure some one will set me right.

Need all the help I can get.
Randy

I'm kind of with Sandy here. I have no bitework training whatsoever, but if I were the dog I'd sure be confused. The dog is probably thinking, "I *used* to be able to just bite the decoy, and everything is the same today, but for some reason my handler is holding me back and not letting be get the decoy! What gives?" And she gets more and more confused and frustrated and the holding her back is seen as an "unfair correction" thus she snapped at you out of frustration and being in drive.

I have had this happen to me with a frustrated, untrained dog before - he just didn't understand the correction at all and was in high drive.

That is my view of things, maybe it will help. ???

Edit: now that she understands what she is supposed to do before getting the bite, I'll bet she'll be a lot easier to handle. I think it was just a learning curve thing with a high drive dog.

Sandy,
As a second thought, because I'm not really sure I like the way the last post was worded for one and as a true second thought:
It could be just the differences between how two pros reach the same end. No two professionals are going to teach exactly the same way.

Randy

 Quote: sandy moore

I'd sure like to hear more about OB being left out of the protection phase of training for a few months in sports. Is this normally the way it's done?

This is how I would do it with sport or PPD. Sport foundations are great foundations for PPD's too. For some reason people think that PPD is an entirely different thing. The reality is, that PPD is simply an extension of sport training. If anything, a PPD needs even more of this to really build his confidence and drive, because this dog needs the confidence to bite something he has never bitten before the day that he needs to bite human flesh. Sport dogs have the benefit of being able to train for exactly what they will be doing in trial. PPD's can only train for "close to" what they will be doing. If you control the dog too much, the dog will become too dependant, think too much, and rather than just "bite what I'm told", he will feel something he doesn't know and think "hmm this is different" then stop biting and look at you while you're screaming "NOOOO DONT LET GO!! BITE HIM BITE HIM!!" :p

The reason alot of people with sport backgrounds train PPD's differently (rather than using their great knowledge of sport training to set a foundation) is often not because its the right way, but:

a) They rush the training and take too many steps too quickly, because they think it is what the client wants. Typically, sport people are dedicated to spending years to achieve results, where most PPD clients want a dog that is "ready" a week before they buy the dog.

b) People have this whacky idea that PPD training is drastically different to sport foundation training, so trainers adapt their training to what they think the client wants to see. Clients love to see their dog do something new every week, it's boring to see the dog do the same exact thing 10 weeks in a row. In reality, doing the same thing 10 weeks in a row is often better than doing something new every week.

c) The same reason trainers over-work a dog.... clients do not want to spend $35, or whatever the price is, to spend 4 minutes training their dog, even though 4 minutes may be all the dog should be doing that day. Just like this, clients do not want to drive 45 minutes one way twice a week, spend $35, and not see the progress. So trainers rush things along to make the clients feel they get their moneys worth, just like they will work a dog for 45 minutes even though the dog should have stopped after the first or second bite.

Some trainers also simply don't take their non-sport clients as seriously as sport clients. Sad, but true. For example, you will see a good trainer spend alot of time doing motivational OB with a client doing Sch, but then when they have a client coming for OB they will train in 100% compulsion. The logic being "the dog doesnt have to look happy, because there is no judge... the dog should just do what he's told when he's told to do it, so compulsion is a quick way to make clients happy". Seen it 100 times, it disgusts me.

 Quote: Mike J Schoonbrood

As for why you weren't scared of her when her teeth came at you -- I dont understand why anyone would be scared of their own dog. Weak handlers may be scared of their own dog, and that is probably why they get bitten more often than a strong handler

I agree with the weak handlers getting bitten more often, but I also think that it's normal to be startled the first time your dog does this, especially for new handlers (not saying you, Geoff) or for people who just never saw it coming from a dog they thought they knew or could predict their dog. Everyone has a first time learning experience! There have been lots of posts on this board from experienced handlers who were surprised by how their dog reacted to something.

That's why I said what I said about trying not to anticipate it happening again. Even if it's not fear per se that's getting you watching for it, it can change your focus and your attention and can certainly throw things off for both handler and dog. And while it's certainly something that can be in the back of your head that it's something you might need to react to, it shouldn't be the pervasive thought. JMO.

 Quote: randy allen

I think it depends mostly on the dog Sandy. From what I've been able to figure, some dogs if introduced to ob. to soon become what someone called 'handler dependent'. ie. wouldn't be able to make a decision or move on their own and need their self esteem and confidence built up first. (And imo probably aren't fit for ppd anyway) And I suppose that the inverse is true, some dogs are so confident as it really is a matter of making sure that everybody is on the same page(so to speak) as the training progresses.
If I've got it wrong, I'm sure some one will set me right.

Yeah that's about it in a nutshell, Our FR coach and the head decoy we have been moving really slow with her to let it all sink into her head. She still is a fairly young dog at 17 months and has only been doing more serious bite work with a helper since June before that we just farted around with tugs and rags etc. French Ring in itself is just so demanding from so many aspects for both handler and dog you need to approach it in that way or both the handler and dog gets lost.

 Quote: mike j schoonbrood

Geoff don't worry about it, she's a driven Malinois. My bitch did that crap all the time when she was learning the OB in Protection. She still does it if we are on the sidelines watching other dogs work, she will hit the end of the leash bouncing around, then turn back and snap at the leash. Its worse when she's on a prong because the "pain" from the prong intensifies aggression in a malinois/dutchie.

Yes sir that is it, the Warner Bros character 'Tasmanian Devil' on a leash.

 Quote: Mike J Shoonbrood

But my warning to you is that if she has any amount of softness in her, which most female Mali's do, dont over-do the control work at a young age. I dont remember how old you said she was, but the thing that most people seem to screw up on is mis-reading their dog, thinking the dog is a hard dog/capable of all this advanced training (because when the dog is drive the dog will seem alot harder than they really are), then somewhere down the line they will stumble over a line where suddenly they are asking TOO MUCH permission for everything and acting too sensitive from the excessive control. You need to find the balance for your female, and sometimes let her go nuts to keep her confidence level high. Too much control in bitework can be just as bad as too little control.

Yup Mike once again you nail it right on the kisser, I've gone over this a lot with my FR coach and the decoys. This is one of the main reasons I have been told to chill and just let it happen i.e. not force train bite work and just make it fun. As you are right she is a cerebral dog at the same time as being so driven. I am always mindful of not being hard on her with corrections as she just doesn't need it. i.e. If I raise my voice I see the ears go back and the 'oops' look on her face appears. For instance during sheep herding she got nailed really hard on a prong by the instructor while biting a ewe and she shied away from the instructor for the rest of the session despite the instructor sucking up to make up!

Mike your posts are always so thoughtful, insightful and entertaining. I really appreciate your sharing of information with us. If I ever get to that Chinese place in Tervuren .. dinner or at least a pint of Belgium's finest is on me!!

 Quote: Amber Morgan

 Quote:

Originally Posted By: Mike J Schoonbrood
As for why you weren't scared of her when her teeth came at you -- I dont understand why anyone would be scared of their own dog. Weak handlers may be scared of their own dog, and that is probably why they get bitten more often than a strong handler

I agree with the weak handlers getting bitten more often, but I also think that it's normal to be startled the first time your dog does this, especially for new handlers (not saying you, Geoff) or for people who just never saw it coming from a dog they thought they knew or could predict their dog. Everyone has a first time learning experience! There have been lots of posts on this board from experienced handlers who were surprised by how their dog reacted to something.

Exactly, I'm not saying I'm a strong handler, I'm still more of a green handler. I originally posted more for knowing where I should be in case she ever did to come up the leash at me, which Carol B answered on page 1 thanks Carol.

When I saw it coming I wasn't surprised as she was really frustrated, you never expect a bite can happen but with this type of dog the possibility is always there. So I know what is capable I'm probably a poster boy for why Malinois are not for first time handlers. She is my first competition dog, so it has been baptism by fire .. I've perservered and made tons of mistakes but yet the dog and I keep learning and improving while building our bond as a team.

I'm not going to dwell on it that is for sure. My FR coach says it is all about the mental game and working hard on that game.. I'm really looking forward to Thursdays training. I will let you know how it goes.