Beth wrote in part:

While a general lack of focus on strong working characteristics is indeed a problem, there is also lack of TRAINING and sincere and thorough preparation (IMO) for these events - people are willing to put their dogs on the field with "just enough to get by." Some of these dogs really are capable of FAR better performances if it was a higher priority.

As always enjoy your view point. Regarding your above, every breeder makes breeding choice every day and those choices are, for the most, part guided by there goal. If there goal is to win a big shows they choose dogs that will give them the best opportunity to do so. In fact a working breeder/handler and show breeder/handler will always make different breeding choices by choosing different dogs, because they have different goals. If two dogs become available one more closely mirrors the standard and the other although is a nice looking dog with better temperament doesn't, the show breeder and or handler will in most cases choose the best looking dog. If that is done long enough those dogs, because of that choice, will become weaker. That is what has happened to high line GSD's and why. IMO because of those breeding choices show lines, for the most part, "just have enough to get by" and training has little to do with it. Because even the best trainer can't train temperament. You may be right in that show line dogs are capable of far better but given how they, and the dogs behind them were selected, I'm thinking not much better. Norman

 Quote: Norman Epstein

Beth wrote in part:

Because even the best trainer can't train temperament. You may be right in that show line dogs are capable of far better but given how they, and the dogs behind them were selected, I'm thinking not much better. Norman

Norman, I appreciate your viewpoint. Can you send me a video (i.e You Tube) link so I can watch you and your dog(s) work?? I sometimes need a visual to drive stuff home. Thanks!!

Beth

Beth go to youtube and in the search box put in normandavidepstein that will take you to my training videos, I believe there are about 20 or so. Four with a GSD pup and the rest with a Boerboel that has now eared his Sch A degree. Norman

 Quote: norman epstein

Beth go to youtube and in the search box put in normandavidepstein that will take you to my training videos, I believe there are about 20 or so. Four with a GSD pup and the rest with a Boerboel that has now eared his Sch A degree. Norman

Thanks for the specific search keywords. I just watched the video of you and the Boerboel doing retrieves and the send out. That looks like an interesting breed!! Since Joliet Schutzhund is an all breed friendly training place, I hope you will encourage any fellow Boerboel owners in the Chicago are to contact us if they are interested in Schutzhund training.

Dave has an interesting training technique for teaching the send out that tends to increase speed, and also keep the dog "heads up." PM me if you are interested - I'll be happy to share. Dave is such a perfectionist and I realize everyone isn't that way!! Because his personal competion is on the larger side as a GSD, trying to improve speed in the OB work is a constant focus for him - hence we hear a lot about that here. As the Boerboel appears to be a larger breed in general, I would imagine you might have some interesting tips on that topic as well.

Thanks for sharing! I enjoyed that.

Beth

Thanks for your kind words and glad you enjoyed the videos. JFYI my breed of choice is the GSDs and that Boerboel weighed then about 135-140 pounds.

Greetings!

I see the 2008 USA Sieger Show fiasco has found its way here to you. I occasionally visit this forum, but have not registered, until last night.

I see, by the postings on this thread, that you all seem to see the error that has been made for several years. The UScA has rules for the sieger show, and they just have not seen the need to follow those rules. This year was NOT the first year this has happened, it has been an ongoing issue. Everyone has complained, moaned and groaned, but no one really thought to do anything about it. "let the show folks have their fun." Now, this year things have changed. A brave man, who exhibited, video taped the event. Ah, now undeniable PROOF positive that the rules are not being followed.

The event officials, have shown themselves to be a judas to the german shepherd dog. They did not follow or enforce the rules. By doing this, dogs that SHOULD NOT have been given a declaration of Pronounced and Out, were allowed to advance to the stand for exam, and then the ring. If, the rules had been followed, and enforced, the line up for VA and V would have been very different. We might acutally have had dogs who didn't attempt to avoid the stick hit by jumping off the sleeve, placed in positions of Honor as Excellent Select.

We all know that there are more issues of concern with the EB and other officals of USA. This situation, just happens to come with visual proof positive. Now add to that a membership who sees that the rules, of any USA event, no matter the event should be followed and now we have an avenue for change.

The Petition, as mentioned above, is only step one in provoking change within the organization. This really isn't about Show Lines VS Working Lines, this is an issue of the RULES and the rules not being followed, okay they were completely ignored. Who knows maybe if we can actually get the organization to FOLLOW the RULES, we could actually see a change a change for the better in the dogs that are presented at the sieger show.

I shall be very clear, I love a dog that can work, and I have German Showline. I am the first to stand up and complain about the lack of character, energy, training, and temperament in a dog. I hate that the breed is divided, and that organizations such as USA, continue to promote the division by continually accepting less than mediocre performance tests, and handing out PRONOUNCED, like they are tictacs.

Yes, the videos were (ya know I have run out of adjectives, just pick one)...however, you can say there are a majority of dogs out there very similar to what was witnessed, but do NOT be fooled into thinking they are all like that. There are some very fine show line dogs out there, that are not treated or trained like show line dogs. They are trained and worked like a german shepherd dog should be. Sadly, the owners, handler, trainers of these dogs, have stopped going to the sieger shows, because they know, that no matter how well their dog performs in the performance test, the pronounced means nothing anymore. VA does not mean excellent select anymore either. Me? I am happy with my SG rated German Show line, who doesn't come off the sleeve when hit, stepped on, or when the threat of that happening is there. Plus, she has pretty good obedience and does heel to the attack out of the blind.

I would like to personally thank everyone who sees that the petition is NOT about show vs working, but that it is about the RULES, and how the organization does not follow its own rules. For those of you who have signed, I thank you! For those of you who haven't signed yet, I know you will. This is a clear cut situation of what is right and what has been wrong. Please add your name to the petition and remember your membership number. If at this time you cannot remember your membership number, sign anyway, you can always email me the # when you find it. I will be adding the numbers to the petition print out before it is sent to the EB.