To me the only collar that comes close to what a mother dog would correct a pup is a prong. The rest are interupters even a e-collar doesn't have the same feel as an alpha's teeth on a subordinates neck. Used correctly and fairly do they instill fear or do they instill respect?

As well I'm not sure I agree with how the word

 Quote:

fear

is being thrown around.

The correction for one has to be at a level that it is effective enough to stop/correct the unwanted behaviour. Why do a 100 nagging corrections where one level 10 correction (depending on the behaviour) will stop the behaviour and make the dog think twice about ever doing that again. Is that

 Quote:

fear

or is that respect to the pack leader?

The key is the dog needs to know why it came in the first place.

A correction needs to not deflate the dog. It all revolves around the dog's state of drive how you come to a conclusion of how and how much you will zing the dog and the tool used. (When warranted)

I am a 95% positive reinforcement handler but that other 5% has always been the stickler for me. I am a big softy and really need to think myself before using that other 5% to make sure that it is both effective, but yet fair.

Handlers can become correction happy whatever the tool, (Voice, Can, Collar, Prong, etc) that is what creates a dog that is wise to what is coming. Then is in danger of not performing when push comes to shove by tuning it out, IMO.

What collar is being used on this dog, Mike?

It seems some important facts are being missed here. When in drive a dog is capable of ignoring normal corrections. If this dog is on a flat collar when it smells something uber tasty of course the corrections are not having any effect! Food drive is often times for many dogs the strongest drive they have.

From a post I wrote a while ago, regarding the shake can and why NOT to use it.

"A dog may be sensitive to loud noises/nervy, I never want to encourage nervousness or provoke a nervous response from a dog simply to get it's attention. Shaking a can full of rocks or pennies could be frightening to a dog with weaker nerves, and you are essentially the source of the sound, the cause of the fearful object/sound etc.

To me, teaching a dog that when it does something a human finds indesirable, it will be frightened or startled, is not a good approach, it may stop them from continueing the bad behavior but every time a dog hears a loud noise or similar sound it will think it is being corrected and become even more nervous."

Now, dogs can associate the noise correction with the can alone, or the human has the association with the scary sound.

The word fear is used appropriately. In this case the dog is afraid of the sound, not necessarily the handler. The sound is unnatural and strange and FRIGHTENING. It is not something the dog can show submission to in order to make the bad thing go away because the dog does not know what the hell is making the sound at first, the initial reaction is "AAAAAAHHHH! WHAT WAS THAT!" the initial reaction of a dog being corrected by the handler should not be fear in a "Holy **** what was that scary thing!" sort of way. A dog understands correction in a physical manner or vocal manner as coming from the handler - if the dog does learn that the sound of the shake can comes from the handler it can be a correction from the handler but you are still creating sensitivity to sound in the dog.

If the dog comes to view loud sharp sounds like that as corrections - either from the handler or not, what are you going to do when your dog becomes neurotic because similar types of sounds occured at random moments when the dog was doing nothing that needed to be corrected? Fireworks, someone dropping something, etc this dog is going to think it is being corrected for walking a heel, or laying on its bed, or being in its crate.

If you are intending the can to get the dogs attention because you alone cannot then I suggest you look at how you handle and train the dog because there is obviously something not working here.

Leashes are tools, collars are tools. Indeed you are correct there, Mike. But just because I trained my dog on a leash does not mean I am at a total loss without one in my hand and attached to my dog. The leash is more a means of control just in case. I have a dog that is middle of the road between hard and soft. He is handler sensitive but can take a level 7-8 prong correction and not batt an eye when he's in a territorial or prey driven state. In his case me saying something to him is far more effective than a collar correction.

You know, a point that I'm not sure I've made on this forum yet... I talk about corrections when a dog is in drive. I don't know about any of you but the only corrections I ever give are when a dog is in or is starting up in one drive or another. The varying intensities of each drive determines the required correction to be effective at that time.

If the dog is being active in something it is being governed by a drive to do so. Understanding your dogs intensity in each drive is a huge key in really understanding your dog and how to best and properly handle it in the most effective way.

So saying "no" to a dog with low prey drive for lighting up a bit on a small animal can suffice for that instance. But saying "no" to a dog with high food drive when it's nose is locked onto something fantastic is NOT sufficient for that instance. Because the drive was at a higher level than the correction from the handler.

^ great info, Jennifer.

I understand the risk of causing her to fear loud noises by using a can. I do not intend to continue using this method- mostly since I think it worked already- but also because I can see yours and others points.

That being said, to address a comment in a previous post:

I'm far from a professional (obviously ), but just because a noise (Not talking anything specific) scares a dog does not make that dog "fearful". I've been on a Schutzhund field during the Gunshot Test and a falling ladder makes more noise than that. There are levels of "fear".

It would make sense to me that a dog could be startled (fear?) by a falling ladder or other loud noise and not be a "fearful dog". Just like some dogs could not be affected at all. That is why some dogs are suited for certain types of professional service and some are not and some are lost causes.

I respect Ed and his experience and knowledge, but feel that many times people try to apply his 30+ years of experience into their situations just by watching a video. (Not pointing out anyone here specifically).

It seems like I'm straying from the topic though.

Thank you all again.... Ginger says "woof" (that means "thanks" in Aussie. )

I think Jennifer's post really hit the nail on the head where I was trying to go with my explanation, about coming up with an appropriate tool and level for a correction.

Though I still want to touch on the the whole 'fear' thing.

 Quote: mike hawker

I'm far from a professional (obviously ), but just because a noise (Not talking anything specific) scares a dog does not make that dog "fearful". I've been on a Schutzhund field during the Gunshot Test and a falling ladder makes more noise than that. There are levels of "fear".

It would make sense to me that a dog could be startled (fear?) by a falling ladder or other loud noise and not be a "fearful dog". Just like some dogs could not be affected at all. That is why some dogs are suited for certain types of professional service and some are not and some are lost causes.

This I totally agree with, Just because a tent blows in the wind and surprises a dog or a handler zings a dog with a prong collar and cause the dog some discomfort and surprise. How could that be much different than a shaker can used to interupt a behavior?

If a dog goes into total fear mode over a pot lid falling on the kitchen floor. Isn't this a sign of a dog with weak nerves or some sort of mental issues caused by some sort of abuse if it falls to pieces?

It's not like someone is abusing the dog when something like this happens. Some things I'd expect any dog not just a working dog to recover from quickly. I know it is a scary world out there .. but really not to hurt poor fluffy's feelings because of noise.. IMHO To bad fluffy, get over it. I won't coddle my kids why would I coddle my working dog, or any dog for that matter?

Well to quote my whole bit as I just grabbed a piece that fit the situation:

"I disagree with the use of a can with rocks or pennies in it for the following reasons:

A dog may not react to this at all, ever, if in drive (pick one) and the reason for the barking is something other than "just because."

A dog may react at first, but quickly begins to ignore the sound and continue barking.

A dog may be sensitive to loud noises/nervy, I never want to encourage nervousness or provoke a nervous response from a dog simply to get it's attention. Shaking a can full of rocks or pennies could be frightening to a dog with weaker nerves, and you are essentially the source of the sound, the cause of the fearful object/sound etc.

To me, teaching a dog that when it does something a human finds indesirable, it will be frightened or startled, is not a good approach, it may stop them from continueing the bad behavior but every time a dog hears a loud noise or similar sound it will think it is being corrected and become even more nervous.

Teaching quiet on command is great, and I agree that you should redirect your dog's attention to you. If your dog likes squeeky toys, you can get replacement squeekers at a local pet store, squeek that squeeker, which is a sound the dog will be interested in, not afraid of, or startled from."

If the dog has sound nerves and is only startled for a moment all you have done is redirect their attention and the shaking of the can will not be an effective correction. After a few times the dog will ignore the shake can because it will identify the source of the sound as nothing to be concerned about.

The dogs that a shake can DOES work for - the ones that always react to the sound or have an increasing reaction to the sound that the shake can can easily have a negative effect on.

Just because a dog is startled does not mean it is afraid or has weak nerves, it depends on what the dog does following that moment of being startled that determines nerve quality. Once those strong(er) nerved dogs learn that X sound means nothing important they will ignore it and thus the shake can becomes useless.

Hah I just copy and pasted.. I'm a bit brain dead this afternoon. The areas where I mention barking are because this was from a thread about how to stop a dog from barking but it applies to the general use of the shake or rattle can for correction. So instead of "continue barking" we can say "continue trying to get the food from the table/counter." etc

Hi Mike. You're right, the word "fear" was getting thrown around, by me as well, but fear was the impression I got from your original post, ie dog looked like it was going to pee, which made me of course think of fear. So as far as corrections that frighten a dog, make it cower, tuck its tail, pee on the floor, I feel my previous post still applies.

But if your dog didn't show signs of that type of fear, if it was JUST startled but recovered quickly, then no, I wouldn't say she had shown signs of fear.

Just to clarify to anyone, when I used the word fear I didn't mean the respect that sometimes is defined as "fear", as in fear of God, I meant frightened, afraid, distressed, anxious, worried, etc. Also not to be confused with startled. Fear is an emotion that can be or is carried around, startled is very temporary with quick recovery.

Fear is insidious, with dogs as well as humans. It may start with one thing but it "travels". It doesn't stay put with the particular thing that started the fear, it begins to affect other areas as well. That's why I advised against using corrections that would cause fear in a dog, again distinguishing fear from being merely startled.

It's also important to remember that even a strong nerved dog can become conditioned to behave a certain way to a certain sound, command, smell etc.
For example :
10 week old pup is headstrong, into everything. Corrections mean nothing to pup, and it bounces back so fast from correction owner will usually get nipped, etc. So owner gets an air horn to make a sound correction to startle the pup out of doing something. Pup is corrected, startles, jumps back, gets praised for: (in owners mind) respecting the sound, backing away from the item, whatever; (in pups' mind) being afraid. This behavior, when continued to be marked in the same way (praise for compliance when the pup is in a nervous state of mind) turns into a fear aggression that leads to pup becoming a dog neurotic about sounds. Any loud sound is seen as a correction, and the dog responds aggressively to anyone/thing that it sees as being less dominant than he. If it is seen as more dominant, the dog behaves fearfully. This goes on for about 26 months where the dog is given up due to severe aggression problems. Fortunately dog winds up with a retired k9 handler who addresses and deals with the neurotic behavior by desensitizing and exercise/ training. Because dog is very hard, and pretty strong nerve wise, it recovers and is fine after being balanced again.
Imagine this with a weaker nerved dog. Sure, we want our dogs to be able to just "deal" but keep in mind that any behavior that is nurtured will continue to happen - no matter how strong nerved the dog is. I have seen SAR dogs that will not flinch when a chopper is landed in front of them, and others that run from the walkie beeping. Some of that is probably nerves, but it is also VERY possible that that behavior is also created by the handler, or at least made WORSE by the handler. Causing the pup or dog to go into a frantic or startled/fearful state of mind when corrected is not calm - and corrections SHOULD be calm. JMHO

 Quote: Cameron Feathers

...Causing the pup or dog to go into a frantic or startled/fearful state of mind when corrected is not calm - and corrections SHOULD be calm. JMHO

My opinion is the same. I don't believe corrections should startle the dog. Startling in a dog should only be in response to something outside of the owner's control (unless we're testing the pup's/dog's nerves intentionally), not in response to a correction.