Don't know whether this is the best place to ask these questions, but I'll give it a shot.

At 53, I'm a lifelong dog owner/lover. I have always been most fascinated by working dogs, but the dogs I've trained have all been hunters - two labs and a brittany over the years.

Currently in the house, we have a mini-dachshund that had back surgery (about 13 years old), Italian Greyhound that has PRA (9 years old), and three Cornish Rex cats (all middle aged). The Cornies are active and athletic. They all get the Zooms every day and race from one end of the house to the other. The cats play with the dogs and vice versa. All goes well with the critters, my wife and I. We live on a 1/2 acre lot next to 2 parks and a long walking/biking trail next to a canal. Lots of places for the dogs to run on the property as well as for us to go on walks, runs, bike rides, and so on. The dogs are members of the family and are not crated except when we travel, or maybe when we have a large "gathering" at our house.

Anyway, my question. Next year (Spring 2011), I will have the opportunity to work less than half time for the year. I'll have the summer off work altogether. I'm thinking about getting a puppy next spring, and have the entire summer and year really to raise it right, train and work with it. After that, it will be back to work 40 hours/week for 3 or 4 years, then retire for good. The options I am alternating between are another bird dog, or possibly a Mal or a Dutch Shep. It's hot here - so want a short-haired breed. My next door neighbor has an older Mal that is the worlds perfect dog. They walk her off leash everywhere, and she is amazing. Never a stitch of aggression. All the little dogs run up to her growling and defensive, and she just stands there without a twitch. She is amazing.

Am I naive to contemplate getting a Mal or a Dutch Shep pup to train in Sch, or similar sport? My wife, a true animal lover, is worried about upsetting the old dogs, and dislikes the puppy chewing stage. I hate the idea of waiting until all of the dogs have expired before adding another, so I will be showing her all the ways I will manage the young gator (ex-pen, crate, kennel out for 1/2 day at a time possibly when weather is nice). Don't worry, I'm not just going to bring home a dog one day against her wishes..

Does early bite training and work on increasing drives in a young dog compete with socialization and living with all the other critters? I do realize that there must be crate and ex-pen time built in, and that there is no substitute for supervision when out "free" in the yard or house.

At what age must the bite training aspect occur, and is there a critical period for this training? For example, if a person sticks with extensive socialization and early positive OB training exclusively miss out on the period during which the protection training would be done?

With bird-dog socialization, chewing on hands, furniture, clothing, shoes, ANYTHING that is not made for the dog is verbotten. You want good manners and a "soft mouth" (for retrieving). I guess I'm wondering how using the tug, and encouraging the early biting fits into the socialization process (or does it?)

Are there competitive Sch dogs that started as well-socialized pups and were only introduced to Sch after they matured?

I am an active and healthy person, but are the exercise requirements of a driven Mal or Shep so over the top that a 54-60 year old should not even consider one?

Do the "drive requirements" of a Sch candidate basically make such a dog a bad match for our current situation?

The dog I seek will have a stable temperament, good nerves, good breeding, parents who had those qualities. I don't want the dominant dog in the litter. I want a calm, easier-going, middle-of-the pack dogs. Are there dogs of this nature that have low to mid- prey and work drives that can be trained for sport, yet co-exist as a family member?

This post is WAY TOO LONG and I apologize.

I would greatly appreciate any and all opinions from the folks who have been there.

Whew, a lot more than I can answer. I truly believe that age is no excuse to do the things you want. Where there is a will there is way (mostly). You can also add in treadmills to help exercise in addition to with you. Plus it might be healthy for you to remain active.

I also think there are two ways to look at Sch. or similar type sports...1) is the competitive side and needing to get the titles and 2) participating for the fun of it and the titles are a surprise. At our group (I am one of the just for funners) we have a mix of highly competitive and funners, so you'll need to find a group to train with that will accommodate if this is what you opt for.

As far as bite work and socialization, the dogs in these sports still need to show manners to humans and the other dogs and (socialization) is required for the OB-BH. As far as the bite work I still think there are manners involved as there are some dogs in the club that are working on not 'going in dirty'. A plus to starting with pup and right trainer will limit the bad behaviors and relearns. I went to a couple different training sessions without a dog and just observed before settling on the club we're in. OB is a huge part of the whole Sch sport.

I'm not sure how to answer your question about if this type of dog will be good to interact with the others. There are just so many variables when adding to the group.

Drive is def important, would lean toward mid and up but have been told that you can develop this in any dog. So it would be easier to start with a dog that had it and wants it rather than to work at building it.

Well, I'll keep thinking if any of my experiences would help (I am new to Sch.). See what others post and your additional thoughts....

Thanks for the opinions, Aimee, they all make good sense. The treadmill is an excellent idea - during at least 4 months a year it is over 100 degrees.

Also a wonderful idea about spending some time around a club and observing the training. I think that is something I'd like to do next fall even before getting the pup.

Thanks for the "if there is a will there is a way" encouragement as well. That's the philosophy I live by...of course tempered in reality most of the time.

Although I love competitive sports and have spent most of my life competing in one sport or another, I guess the thing that gives me the most enjoyment now is the teaching aspect and watching the students grow and learn and enjoy and develop. I would definitely fit in the "have fun and learn and titles, if they come, would be incidental..."

It sounds like maybe a good rule of thumb might be "it's easier to manage than to manufacture drive?" And yes, agree that really most of Sch is OB work. Some drive in protection and some drive in tracking, but both quite controlled. I'm just fascinated with all of it. I had the most fun with my hunting dogs teaching them to track. Man, when that light comes on and they start to get what they are seeking, they just take off.

Yep I have way too many questions. Questions like "do you have to decide right away that you will try Sch with a pup and get started with bite prep, or can you defer until later, say at a year or so?" I'm sure the top competitors start early, but are there other competent Sch dogs that were started later, after alot of the OB was in place?

Thanks for taking a stab, Aimee!!

Work interferes with my lifestyle as well I would do SAR in a heartbeat if the dog had the talent and my schedule allowed. There will come a day when my work schedule will allow it, but I'll be an old fart and my age won't, I guess. I wonder what kind of jobs most of the SAR folks have that allows such flexibility. THAT's the sort of job I need for career #2.

That is very cool that you got your dog started somewhat later into sch. So - the decision does not have to be made the day you walk in the house with a potbellied pup. Nice.

So after reading more and thinking more about "integrating" a dog into the family, I finally realized that the dog will have to be managed and that is part of the integration plan. (we've always just included our dogs in everyday life - they have free reign of the house and the yard - it's worked with our current mutts.)

Ivan Balabanov in his "Advanced Sch" book talks about managing the dogs interactions with other dogs in that first year to 18 months. You want the dog to look to the handler for cues and reinforcement, not to other dogs, and for that reason, a kennel is necessary, along with crate and possibly an ex-pen inside (for the 115+ plus degree days in the summer). I realized that I could easily build an outside kennel in a shady spot next to our house, and put a dog door through the exterior wall into an air conditioned room and an ex-pen or crate inside. The kennel would have walls, a floor and a top and would be very secure. That way if we have to go away for a few hours, pup would always have a safe place to stay. That, combined with ex-pen in the family room and a lagbolt into a baseboard with a tether, combined with the movable crate, gives LOTS of options for managing pup and keeping her, us, furniture, and the other dogs safe, while allowing some interaction at the same time. This is all, of course, for times when I'm not training, walking, hiking, fishing, whatever with the dog.

Aimee's "where there is a will, there is a way" comment triggered this thinking. It's absolutely true. This also gives me good information to include when I bring up the subject to my wife when the time is right. I'll be able to describe to her in detail how easy it will be to manage a mouthy pup through the chewing stages. She loves our neighbor's old Mal as much as I do - I feel confident she'll warm to the idea once she knows that all of her shoes, furniture, feet, fingers, and so on aren't at risk.

The most important thing, regardless how what you want to work the pup in, is that s/he never learn that other dogs are more fun than YOU.

If s/he gets her fill of fun, and all her drives satisfied at home playing with the other dogs, where's the impetus to work in whatever venue you're asking her to?

Yep, understand Alyssa. I am SSSSOOOOO glad to be looking into this stuff ahead of time because it helps me plan.

On a birddog forum there was a thread "What would you do differently if you could raise/train your dog over again?"

I'd love to see a similar thread for the protection/sch dogs.

This forum is an amazing resource.

(today, I swapped e-mails with a Dutch Shep breeder. The dogs are amazing. There's just something about that brindle coat that has always grabbed me). I'm about exactly a year away from having the time I want to devote to a pup. It's going to be torture.)