Hi Everyone-
I need a bit of advice.
I have a 2 yr old neutered Shepherd/Lab mix who is a wonderful family dog.He loves people, is very calm, very soft to correction except when it comes to other dogs--he has a mind of his own.
He was attacked by an older dog when he was 12 weeks old (bitten in the face), I'm assuming this might have started us on a negative track.
He had always loved other dogs and was very friendly. When he was about 10 months old we met up with a big Golden who was leashed on the trail. They came through the trees and I didn't see them and didn't have time to leash my dog. The Golden growled at him and my dog went after him. I stupidly but successfully broke it up and no one was hurt--but that was the first and last time since that I have ever gotten myself in the postition to have my dog be unleashed when another dog is around. It was my fault and I learned a hard lesson as the owner of the Golden gave me a huge piece of his mind.
When he was about 16 months old my 11 yr old daughter was walking him up the street with my 5 yr old daughter trailing behind. A mean rescued Akita came bounding out of the yard 4 houses away and attacked my 5 yr daughter. Jake broke free of the leash and attacked the dog and chased it down the street. That dog has since been put down.
He has since attacked 2 males who have come in our yard. I don't trust him with any other dogs and always warn off others that he is not always friendly. He loves the dogs he knows, and has at times done just fine with the dogs of people I come across on the trail who refuse to leash their dog even though I have warned them off.
I would say he does fine with females and I've never seen him try to kill another dog, just attack to the point of the other dog submitting.
I know I give off a terrible vibe when we walk as I am always nervous to come across other dogs and try to avoid the trail at times when I think there will be any strange dogs.
We recently got a new female mixed-breed pup and he has become ver mother-like to her and accepted her in his territory without any problem.
He is trained to my Innotek fence and is collar smart. I am waiting for a remote trainer to arrive in the next week or so.
My question:
Should I train this dog never to go near a strange dog at all? Is there anyway to know that he will be reliable and not start a fight?
I have read the articles on aggressive dogs, but I guess I am ignorant of the particulars of doggie behavior to know if he is truly dangerous and if I should just contain him, or if this is a training issue that I can deal with once I really get educated about what the issues are and what some possible solutions might be.
Sorry for the novel-I'd really appreciate any advice or insight anyone can offer.
This site and discussion board are a wealth of information. Thanks in advance.
Janet

Is there a reason why you want this dog off leash? Is there a leash law in effect? Attacking the dogs that came into your yard was the fault of the dogs owners in allowing them to wander.

When you walk the dog, carry pepper spray to protect him from loose dogs. It sounds like the first attack with the Golden was your fault, but the incident with the akita was protection of his pack and with your yard, protection of his territory. Not sure if you should be letting a child walk this dog, as he could break away and hurt another dog. Keep him on his leash and you should not have any problems.

Kim,
Have you ever used pepper spray on an aggressive dog? I've heard mixed opinions on the efficacy of it, so I'm just curious if you have any first hand knowledge that it works.

Janet, in two years, are these all of the incidents that have occurred, or are there more?

I agree with Kim, a lot of this is the fault of humans, you and the other dog owners. But let us concentrate on what we can control.

Keep your dog leashed all the time, when warn others like you are doing, but I'll add walk your dog away from the unleashed dog and hard headed owners.

Your dog is taking over the situation because you are not.

You must became the Leader, you take over the situation by sitting him and standing your grounds. If an aggressive dog approach use the big walking stick approach, pound it on the ground and firmly say "Go home" or "Get out of here". If he keeps coming spray him and or club him.

This will send the other dog running most of the time, you may not need to use the spray. It will also bring the owners into the mix. Just calmly explain the situation, and warn that there is a leash law in most states.

The dogs taking control because no one else is.

The Akita attacking your 5yr old child, Thank god for Jake but he should not have had to protect her if you were walking with them, with the spray and big stick. Good job Jake.

I hope the baby wasn't hurt too bad.

Hi again,
Thanks for all the replies so far.

Kim/Lisa-I have always tried to find a place where the dogs could run a bit off leash, and swim etc.. They love it,and it is a great source of enjoyment for me as well. There are lots of wooded trails where people walk their dogs around here off the leash. It not populated like a dog-park would be, but you are likely to come across other dogs depending on where and when you walk.
I have a wetlands pond area near my house that is a huge no-man's land. Perfect for exercising a dog. I have made all my off leash walks happen there in the early morning since I started to realize that I have a problem with the dog. I rarely see other dogs there, and if I do I have plenty of time to leash Jake.

Kim-the kids are no longer allowed to walk our dog. Shortly after the Akita attack, they had Jake on a leash and he broke away and went after the male dog who lived next dog to the Akita in that dog's own yard. He was barking and snarling and Jake went after him. It was the only time he broke any dog's skin. That was a year ago and the kids have never been allowed to walk him since. Another hard lesson learned. That dog was fine, didn't require any care, but I was totally ignorant of dog behavior at the time and it never occurred to me that my dog was aggressive or looking to protect the pack. Looking back I can't believe how stupid I was.
There have been other smaller incidents when both dogs were leashed and he lunged for the other dog. And another curious thing--if we are in the car and he spots one of the dogs who he "knows" from a previous fight he goes nuts at the window barking and growling, but will just look at a dog he doesn't know with a calm curiosity. All in all I'd say there have been 10 incidents where he has shown aggressive tendencies or dominance and maybe a few I'm not aware of that happened when my in-laws walked him when I wasn't present... before I started keeping him out of potentially troublesome situations.
Also, the dogs that approach him are not neccessarily aggressive. They are dogs being walked on a trail off the leash. I warn the owners that my dog isn't always friendly, but I have had people say--"let him off they'll work it out". I have repeatedly been told by people who walk dogs off the leash that if one dog is on and one dog is off the leash it will make the situation worse. I only let him off at another owners request once last year and he and he and the other male fought for a few seconds and moved on, and then the other male came back, they fought for a few seconds... this happened 5 times and then the other dog got a stick and put it in his face and they fought for the stick. That was when I thought I'd had enough of that little experiment. He never tried to kill that dog--just fight enough to show he was boss. He has always been fine with females, and some males, but I never know when he will decide this is a dog he doesn't like. He usually is the biggest dog which makes it scary for me.

I guess what I want to know is--Can I ever train this out of him? Or do I just make sure I contain him? This is my first dog and I have learned a lot, but need to learn so much more.
I warn people with puppies to stay away from him because I don't want what happened to him when he was a pup to happen to someone elses dog.

My plan is to get his obedience 100% as I know this wouldn't be a problem if I had complete control over him. I'm just deciding whether to do it with a prong collar(which I don't have or an e-collar which will be here in a week). My fence is a combination fence/remote trainer, but I have only used the fence part of it. The collar is out being repaired and will be back in a week.

Sorry again for the novel, but I really appreciate your opinion as to whether or not I'm living in a fantasy land hoping to get this dog to the point of where I'm comfortable in any situation or should I just avoid any and every situation with other dogs.

Thanks again for listening and helping.
Janet

Don,
Thanks for the reply. I really have to adjust my attitude, get educated and make sure I am being a completely responsible owner 100% of the time.

My 5 year old ended up in the hospital with 5 puncture wounds all around her eye. How that dog didn't tear her eye out I'll never know. I am grateful that Jake did such a good job protecting her.

It is a bit embarassing seeing my stupidity down in black and white, but I so appreciate the help, education and encouragement, and am grateful for this site.
Janet

Janet - I'm surprise it took any situation other then your child's attack to put that dog down.

Most of us have made similar mistake, its just not knowing that causes this sometimes all the knowledge in the world can't stop, other people stupidnes.

I've made some mistakes with mixed results, like you I like or wanted my dog to run off leash. When no one is around, but I don't own the park and other people dogs or packs of dogs do are left to run free, no owner in sight. We can't control this.

So there have been times where I protect them before they get started. And there have been other times when they have protected me.

In either case I decided when enough is enough, I've made some stupid mistakes and some calculated risks, luckly they all panned out.

I take back that most times you want to be out front when an really aggressive dog or dogs are attacking. Other people problem dogs & ignorance are hard for you to control.

I will say that you do need to learn how to break up a dog fight safely (or as safe as you can, its posted on the forum) and gain control of your dog to make sure he doesn't start anything, the first thing is gain control of your emotions when other dogs approach, take a I'm in charge attitude instead of "Oh My what am I gonna do??" Your brave dog scenses this and goes into protect mode. Let him know its alright and you are in control (even if you still feel like you aren't).

Heres what I use to do, when I saw a large dog out of control being walked by a smaller person. Or a dog owner struggling to control a large or small vicious dog. I'd get off the trail and sit my dogs and watch the dog and owner walk by, usually even if their dog is growling and pulling toward us, we are out of range.

Now if the dog drags their owner toward us, I'm in his/her face with a warning maybe the big stick thing, I warn "Can't you control that dog, waving the stick or do you want me to help ya", if they get any closer to me my dogs are up and in defense.

Usually when the owner thinks his dog maybe injuried or himslef then they get stronger and more attentive and quickly pull their dog away.

I had a incident happen 1.5 years ago were this pitbull avoided me and attacked my Rottie(pup almost a 1 yr), she fought back, while she attacked his head the GSD attacked his rib area, I lifted the pitts back legs stretching him out.

This seemed to startle the dog more then being bite twice. After he let go I order them to stop and I dropped his legs he took off with his tail tucked running to his house never had a problem out of him again.

When we walked that route he either tunr his head and down or go to his back yard. As you can see some situations are unavoidable because you can't control the things outside your control.

Stay alert and get a big walking stick.

Janet,
How workable this is really depends upon so many factors. But I can tell you that for most people, it's really too complicated to be working on without some help. You could probably make some progress by muddling through on your own, but having a knowledgeable trainer on your side really will make a big difference. Plus, working on your own, there are many opportunities for mistakes that could make things worse.

The first thing you need to do is get control. You need to eliminate his opportunities for aggression. That means, no more off leash walking. If there is even the slightest chance of happening upon another dog that your dog will attack, then you have to stop letting him off leash.

Next, any encounters that he has with other dogs need to be in situations in which you have complete control. Nothing is left to chance, and your dog has no opportunity to control the situation. That means, no more letting him meet other dogs while out in public. You need to set up encounters with other dogs under the supervision of a trainer. If you're walking him and some yahoo has their dog off leash, which is running up to meet yours, you need to step in and keep that other dog away. I'd recommend carrying some citronella based spray (it's called Direct Stop, by Premiere Pet Products) or a pistol sized Super Soaker filled with plain tap water. These will be just as effective at deterring curious, nonaggressive dogs as pepper spray will, without the risk of getting pepper spray on yourself or your own dog.

I would also recommend that you replace your invisible fence with a physical barrier, such as a cedar privacy fence. Keeping other dogs out of your yard will prevent situations that result in fighting from occurring, and blocking your dog's line of sight to areas where other dogs frequent will reduce the occurrences of his territorial behavior.

The reasoning behind the above steps is that every time he fights with another dog, the behavior is reinforced. By doing the above things, you will be eliminating opportunities for reinforcement.

As far as the actual technicalities of what to do when meeting other dogs, that would be best addressed in person by a trainer. For your particular dog, leash corrections may or may not be the appropriate response to aggressive behavior. I tend to think not, because poorly administered punishment can actually act as a reinforcer for the exact behavior that you're trying to stop, and the stimulus can increase your dog's level of arousal in an already tense situation. I think getting his obedience up to 100% is an admirable goal, and a good place to start, but it may or may not be the solution to this problem in and of itself.

Lisa I agree that a Pro trainer would be best. I was just putting out some, "things to consider" "what ifs" and "how to" and "why nots".
"Me to." and "Been there done that", when it comes to feeling igorant to a problem dealing with dog training. And how to stop unwanted behaviours.

I do think you learn a lot more if you can watch the trainer work out the problem or you fix it yourself. You still need the trainers help to understand why it worked. Or discuss it on a board like this. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />