Re: Environmentally unstable
[Re: Ben McDonald ]
#364872 - 08/04/2012 04:38 PM |
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Do you have any quiet parks nearby?
I'd try grabbing a book and a folding chair, driving to a park, setting your chair up outside of your car. Put a leash on Leo and leave the car door open, then just sit there and enjoy your book while he gets a chance to figure out the environment.
Have some high value treats with you so if he decides its okay to get out, then you'll be ready to reward him (I'm guessing if he gets out on his own then he'll be in the right mood for treats)
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Re: Environmentally unstable
[Re: Mara Jessup ]
#364874 - 08/04/2012 06:15 PM |
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Re: Environmentally unstable
[Re: steve strom ]
#364884 - 08/04/2012 10:11 PM |
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I agree with Steve, I had to learn that myself. Cody loved to walk at our shopping area until one day, he was terrified of it, and to this day is very afraid of it. I have no idea why. I found that if I worked on his obedience work doing this time, he began to not look forward to it. I have found as you probably know, that getting through this phase it more important than learning obedience or anything. So, I would do the training where he loves to play and just walk him or have him hanging around the area he is afraid of. Little bits. I had to take tiny tiny steps with Cody, and he is still unsure of the shopping area. but there is light at the end of the tunnel, just take it very very slow, and tiny and tiny bits. I would stay short time until he is no longer nervous, then stretch the time by maybe 5 minutes, and keep it there until he is not stressed, then longer and longer like that. I would have the best treats in the world and only give them to him when he is there.
Just what I have found with my little cody man who is afraid. Ever since he went to the hospital and almost died, he is afraid of beeping noises and men.
I know with you working patiently your pups will recover. Don't loose heart.
Sharon Empson
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Re: Environmentally unstable
[Re: steve strom ]
#364886 - 08/04/2012 11:08 PM |
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Hey Ben, there's a couple of things I think about this. This is different then a dog thats reacting to other dogs or people where you could work at a distance doing ob and then work in closer, slowly.
I think you should keep your ob work separate of this work. This is more like just hanging out with him, letting him deal with whats stressing him little bits at a time.You don't just flood him with it all, but he has to learn to deal with it. Trying to work ob with treats or toys during this could end up making you and the rewards part of the problem.
This doesnt read like anything you've done or missed, I think its what Bob was saying. The other side of some high drive dogs-bad nerves.
Well said Steve! Much better then my mumbling.
Ben, don't give up on your dog. I have a list of things that are very important to me when I select a pup. That came from a lot of years listening and watching others. Many people have had success working with dogs that I wont/don't want to/can't train. My personality can't handle it. It's my biggest shortcoming in being a "real" trainer.
old dogs LOVE to learn new tricks |
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Re: Environmentally unstable
[Re: Ben McDonald ]
#364893 - 08/05/2012 10:51 AM |
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Hey Ben, when I read your original post it seemed to me more like a dog who's afraid to leave his safety zone. Maybe like a pup afraid to leave the den kinda thing. Its not a thing or person causing it, its ghosts you may never find.
Thats why I think you need to figure out what will be small steps for him, it won't be the same as keeping a distance from the problem and building his confidence.Does that make sense?
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Re: Environmentally unstable
[Re: steve strom ]
#364947 - 08/06/2012 04:12 PM |
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I was thinking about this over the weekend.
Ben, this is only environment, correct? Not humans or animals?
Steve mentioned his confidence relying on his "safe zone."
I agree with what he said about "Thats why I think you need to figure out what will be small steps for him, it won't be the same as keeping a distance from the problem and building his confidence."
Reactivity for me almost always generates my usual posts about working with upbeat focus and ob outside the dog's trigger zone, etc., and gradually reducing that trigger zone.
In this case, I'm not reading that kind of situation.
Keeping ob and other training separate from this makes sense to me. I would not want to take any chance of myself becoming part of the scariness.
"This is different then a dog thats reacting to other dogs or people where you could work at a distance doing ob and then work in closer, slowly. .... I think you should keep your ob work separate of this work. This is more like just hanging out with him, letting him deal with whats stressing him little bits at a time."
This resonates with me.
What do you think will be small steps for him? And Steve, what do you think might be?
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Re: Environmentally unstable
[Re: Ben McDonald ]
#364960 - 08/06/2012 07:10 PM |
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How about a little running. It's hard to run with your tail between your legs, and the motion sort of carries them a long.
That helped for my little dog.
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Re: Environmentally unstable
[Re: Ben McDonald ]
#364989 - 08/06/2012 11:29 PM |
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That's really interesting, Betty. I was thinking something along the same lines.
I noticed the 'Rondy' sled dogs always have their tails tucked in photos, even the best lead dogs in the world for open class (usually 18-22 dogs running 20 to 25 mile races). Click on the photos on the right on this page, it's especially easy to see the tail tuck and avoidance (looking away) in the black and white dog. http://www.mushing.com/articles/content.php?vw=3,0,0,583
These dogs can do their jobs because they are trained to run in harness, but they can not deal with city life as a pet dog without extensive work. For these dogs, people biking past or just a walk down a normal city street prompts fear crazy circling, tail tucking, and strong avoidance. A large part of it is genetic. Some is lack of socialization (not important to be a good sled dog).
Selective breeding and lots of line breeding tend to produce these nervy and fearful traits in many sprinty sled dogs (not all). Perhaps the same is true in some sense for working dogs.
This isn't real helpful, in terms of a pratical solution, but my point is that I do think there is a link between high drive (be it for running or ball/tug/bite) and environmental issues/nerves. But if you can get your dog moving through his environment at a good clip, he'll be focused on running and not on his fear. Maybe. He is young, so no long-distance stuff, but maybe a quick romp around a 'new' field?
Sorry to go off on a tangent. I find dog behavior fascinating.
I also wanted to add, he is young. My 13 month old mali has really blossomed and become more and more confident with simple maturity. Lots of socialization, training, etc. but maturity plays a huge role. With time, this behavior may disapate. Besides the suggestion of keeping him moving in a new area, I'm not sure how you go about helping him deal with his fear. I'd suggest maybe socializing with a known and confident dog if he likes to play and that would also keep him moving in a productive way, but I'm not sure you'd want to do that with him. Plus he may become dependent on the other dog... hmm.
Have you read 'Calming Signals'? I just checked this book out at the library. May have some helpful tips to try.
I'm no expert, by any means. Just throwing some ideas out there. I haven't personally dealt with environmental issues in my dogs.
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Re: Environmentally unstable
[Re: Ben McDonald ]
#365658 - 08/22/2012 03:37 AM |
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Thanks everybody for the advice. I have actually read "Calming Signals", and own the video. (Along with ALOT of other books on dogs)
Anyhow, he is only like this outside his safe zone. He has gotten marginally better dealing with the stress of it. I think some unleashed walks through the woods would do him good. I'm going to continue to keep it low key, and see if he makes more improvement.
Here's hoping! I won't be giving up on him. He's here to stay. =)
Cassy & Leo enjoying a nap.
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Re: Environmentally unstable
[Re: Ben McDonald ]
#365659 - 08/22/2012 07:19 AM |
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Around February of last winter, my dog like 2+, it occurred to me that he hadn't really been off the farm in a long time. So on a reasonable weather day (this is Minnesota) I leashed him up and drove him into the little city near us (La Crosse Wisconsin) and proceeded to walk him around. He was MISERABLE.
He acted exactly like you are describing, tucked tail, freaked out even barked at a person.
So then a few times my husband and I, this summer, took him on urban walks. We put the dog between us and walked really fast. We did not let anyone pet him and we didn't feed treats. 6-8 urban blocks, fast, then back into the car.
Now he's better.
It was as if he did not know what his role was on the leash in strange territory, what was he supposed to do?
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