One of my part time IPO-training buddies has a 4 year old rottweiler training protection work.

I'll try to describe what I see:

1) When helper stands still with sleeve, dog starts barking (very deep barking).
2) If the sleeve is on moving on the ground there tends to be more focus on the helper to start with, but as the sleeve moves more and more, the focus changes to the sleeve.
3) In the bark/guard phase, he barks deep and grips very slowly. The slightest amount of "out of the ordinary" movements or anything different, he hesitates extremly in the biting.
4) Working a lot of prey and gives alot of distance, the speed and biting is perfect. No hesitating no slow down at all.

So my question, what is wrong?

What I see is the dog is starting out in defense, but has no balls and extremely insecure. That also matches (in my head) with the helpers work very frontal, alot of starring, hiding, "sleeve stealing", whipping etc. and the dog is simple not strong enough to handle this, causing slow slow biting. (Grip is deep and strong, growling starts when sleeve is gripped and pulling phase starts.)

My thought... Prey drive should be 100%, everything regarding defense should be remove 100%. (As speed and grip is top in this mode). When dogs enters the field with 100% focus on sleeve, for a long period of time. So gripping and speed is good, we can start work more minimal stressors into the training and slowly build him up, maintaining speed and grip.

What are your thoughts? I'm not his daily worker and discussed extremely with the current helper, very good dog handlers and trainers, that keeps saying I'm wrong. I can just see that there is no progress for the last year. Am I wrong?

In my world, prey drive must be on the field chasing the sleeving in the escape etc. and defense is in the bark and hold (if the dog is capable.)

IMHO, based solely on your description, it sounds like the dog cannot handle defense work. Not only is he soft, but he has bad nerves. He cannot handle intense personal pressure. You may be able to work in prey, but close work may trigger his defense, which can manifest itself first as avoidance and then, full-on submission.

He doesn't sound like a good candidate for bitework. You can work with a soft dog, but he must at least have enough nerve to handle minimal personal pressure. This dog will pbly fold at trial.

Everything, including bark and hold, will have to be done in prey, but you will have to learn where his threshhold is and how not to trigger his defense. You can then start from a distance outside of his threshhold and work on closing that gap.

Based on what you say, I'd like to know the helper's take. Are you sure he can tell the difference between drives? Does he know that avoidance and submission are forms of and part of the progression of defense?

The answer to your question: No, there is no knowledge of the different modes, they just work the routine, like if we want a dog to bark we must stare the dog Down or put on alot of pressure trying to steal the sleeve from guarding it on the ground (Don't know what it's called in English ). And so on.

I'm desperately trying to make them work in prey, with no stressors at all, long distance, no eye contact and a lot of action on the sleeve. The problem is that they hang on to: "But he such a good and awesome bark and hold.", going in full frontal and a lot of staring, etc.

But based on your description, it sounds like we are on the same side. So next challenge, how to explain it to the trainers/helpers...?

Let's say the dog was worked in prey over a year fx, no defense at all, wouldn't it be possible to change his view of protection? I mean, when he enters the field and sees the helper he starts of in prey and is a happy stressless dog?

 Quote:

1) When helper stands still with sleeve, dog starts barking (very deep barking).

Sign of defense.

 Quote:

2) If the sleeve is on moving on the ground there tends to be more focus on the helper to start with, but as the sleeve moves more and more, the focus changes to the sleeve.

Focus is on the helper due to fear. When the helper doesn't appear to be a threat, dog shifts to prey item for stress relief and/or avoidance of the helper.

 Quote:

3) In the bark/guard phase, he barks deep and grips very slowly. The slightest amount of "out of the ordinary" movements or anything different, he hesitates extremly in the biting.

Another huge indicator of fear, stress and lack of commitment based on the fear.

 Quote:

4) Working a lot of prey and gives alot of distance, the speed and biting is perfect. No hesitating no slow down at all.

No stress while in prey. Once the decoy is caught I guarantee the dog will disengage in the face of any percieved threat.

His "Good and awesome bark and hold" is merely a trained response, that's all. The rest is shite. What makes it so awesome? A fast, deep bark? All defense for this particular dog. This dog will have a better life at home or in another dog related activity that doesn't involve aggression work.

With no understanding of his threshholds, I don't see the dog improving in protection. Highly unlikely at any level; no chance with the current training.

JMO.

Agreed, I've seen no Progress in 1 year... Actually it's gotten worse.

Appreciate your feedback, guys!

delete dupl

if the owner wants to persist in this work with this dog then the dog needs to get back in the game by making it a game for him that he knows he will always win at and have fun doing so.

will take great training, great decoys and much dedication and time to do so.

 Quote: Peter Cavallaro

if the owner wants to persist in this work with this dog then the dog needs to get back in the game by making it a game for him that he knows he will always win at and have fun doing so.

will take great training, great decoys and much dedication and time to do so.

Too much risk, not enough reward. This dog can't hold his own in even a miniscule confrontation. Leave him at home and get another prospect. He'll live a happier life.

agreed, I was trying to be less direct about saying it tho and maybe keep some options open for the dog.

in working circles the phrase "pet homed the dog" too often is the modern replacement for when people used to say "sent the dog to the farm"