My daughter's German Shorthaired Pointer puppy is 12 weeks old. We felt we'd completely prepared ourselves for her first puppy, but we were clueless about the issues with dry kibble, vaccines, and mainstream protocols and now we are desperately trying to get up to speed, correct some mis-steps and get on the right track.

About a week after we brought him home he began having consistent pudding diarrhea, but otherwise seemed ok and then a few days later fever. Our vet treated him with an antibiotic shot for infection in his lymph nodes and checked him for worms too and a week later vaccinated him with parvo, distemper, adenovirus, parainfluenza vaccine. He immediately became very sick and after the 3rd day the vet had to treat him for his reaction to the vaccines including administering an IV and sending us home with another antibiotic. The breeder had given the Spectra 5 vaccine (parvo, distemper, adenovirus, parainfluenza) at 6 weeks. We had serious reservations about the second round but decided on just getting the second dose of the Parvo vaccine, not realizing until after he became really sick that our vet didn't understand that we were just wanting the one vaccine instead of the combo of all the vaccines.

We first started to question the "norms" when I began researching a good puppy food to switch him to once the week's worth of food the breeder had him on ran out. The breeder recommended Diamond and we got the Diamond Naturals Large Breed Puppy Formula. We got about a week into the bag before we had all the issues with infection and vaccines.

Since we knew his system was stressed, we prepared a week's worth of cooked boneless chicken breast, carrots, pumpkin, chia seeds, rice with a little apple cider vinegar. Once he finished that we started him on a raw diet of chicken only and quickly started serving it to him in whole leg quarters since he was a gulper. We took the leg bone away when he ate almost down to it for a few days and now he just cleans the leg bone and leaves it. We added in some pumpkin once a day with his chicken, but didn't want to introduce anything else into his diet yet. GSPs are lanky puppies, and each time we've gone to the vet he has said he was looking good, but I've not been happy with how thin he is and how hungry he seems, so we increased him to a chicken quarter in the morning and one in the afternoon.

I checked his poop in a ziploc after the first couple days of raw. It was small but well-formed and I found a couple of tiny bits of undigested bone (maybe vertebra - idk). This morning my daughter said he seemed to be straining a lot to poop overnight when they went out and he had burps and some gas yesterday. We went out to have a look. Things looked right to me. A bit of a white powdery appearance on parts of yesterday's poops (maybe a little too much bone), the color was a bit pumpkiny orange, soft, but a well-formed consistency. I have the flu but my daughter said it smells like chicken. I decided to check for bone fragments. None, but there was a white worm about the size of a small bean and several small little worms.

I asked her to take the stool sample to the vet. The big worm got away from us before we could get a bag and even after pouring water over it, we couldn't find it. In "Nutrition for Dogs and Cats", Schultze writes that "during detox you may notice stools containing mucus and parasites".

We're waiting on the results from the vet to find out what type of worms he has (and if the cat has them too) and in the meantime trying to take a minute and learn.

My questions and concerns are:

1. If detox rids the body of parasites, should we wait and let nature take it course?
2. If we need to worm, I don't want to give him some scorched-earth wormer that will throw his little system off again, so what would be a good wormer? Nemex?
3. Has anyone tried things like fermented foods or other "food as medicine" approaches and if that's a way to go, would adding some new food create more issues than it helps since we're dealing with a new issue every week and just starting him on raw?
4. I read that rapidly growing puppies can eat up to 10x the amount of raw that an adult would eat (2% of body weight). Does 2 large leg quarters a day for a while sound like too much food? At 10 weeks he was nearly 14.10 lbs but that was 2 weeks ago and you can nearly see him growing so I'm not exactly sure of his weight.
5. Do you wipe your puppy down - muzzle and feet after they eat raw meat?

Thanks so much for your help!
Penny

I really had good results with Panacur as a wormer. With worms that are actively causing issues sometimes using a stronger wormer is better than trying an all natural solution that may or may not actually get rid of all of them. To me it's not worth enduring cycle after cycle of worms. I would rather just give something like Panacur and then give it a bit of time to get back to normal.

I don't do raw so can't comment on that.

Have you read up on how to raw feed on this website? There are a couple good Earticles that are free, where Cindy shows you how to feed raw. In order for the diet to be balanced they have to have more than just a chicken quarter. Dark meat has a lot of fat too so that may not be the best choice for a puppy with issues - I like chicken backs, they are a great source of a lot of nutrients they need and the bones aren't as big and hard. An easy way to feed raw is to use chicken backs and The Honest Kitchen dehydrated dog food along with it. If not, you have to add organs and other things to balance things out nutritionally.

I would for sure use Panacur. I've not had parasites go away on their own and they can make a puppy feel pretty bad if left too long - maybe that's why he's thinner than he should be?

I'm disappointed that vets still give vaccinations when a puppy is having health issues! I buy parvo and distemper separately at an online pharmacy and give them myself - vets do not have the single vaccines, only the 5 in one.

I completely agree with Cathy and Lori that Panacur (fenbendazole) would be how I would treat a worm infestation. In my own personal experience, I've not seen any ill effects from this product, and it has actually helped clear up the pudding poop. When you say "detox," you are apparently referring to something in the book you reference. I'm not familiar with the book or what the detox entails, but I would not trust any kind of "all-natural" remedy to rid a dog of internal parasites. If those things actually worked, nobody would ever have to use a pharmaceutical product.

A note here about heartworm preventative. I use it (the pharmaceutical stuff). Heartworm is deadly and is not anything I would take chances with. It is also of epidemic proportions in some parts of the country. Of course, certain breeds can have bad reactions to certain heartworm meds. Again, any dog owner should do their research.

With vaccinations, I follow a minimal vaccine protocol. Professional research and understanding on the subject is constantly evolving, so I try to keep up on it, but I'm not sure what the very latest is. I have two senior dogs now, and all I do are titers every few years (and rabies as required by law), but I'm sure I'll study up again the next time I have a puppy. I have taken my guidance from both Dr. Jean Dodds and Dr. Ronald Schultz, as well as the AAHA Canine Vaccination Guidelines. I also consider what infectious agents are a problem in my geographical area. The individual dog also has to be considered. If your puppy had a bad reaction to a vaccine, that is definitely reason to be cautious in the future.

I'm not a raw feeder so I can't offer any advice there.

I just want to say I hope I don't sound like I am against "natural" in terms of feeding and the treatment and prevention of health issues. I actually do believe in natural and/or minimal approaches as much as possible. But I also don't believe that all modern medicine is bad. There are some treatments and preventatives, including pharmaceuticals, that are life-savers. I try to stay informed and up-to-date. I do my research. I read books, but I read a variety of books on a topic, do my fact-checking, and decide which portions make sense to me and fit best with my dog-owning lifestyle. Sometimes, there are huge contradictions between sources, so I will try to see what the consensus seems to be from a variety of sources.

In addition to the many educational articles and videos available on Leerburg, I would encourage you to use the discussion board's search function where you can look up older threads on a wide variety of topics. I'm sure it will be enlightening and entertaining!

Good luck to you, keep us updated, and welcome to the LB board!

Hi Penny and welcome,

I second what has been posted about using Panacur for the worms. It's a common problem with puppies, but better to get rid of them now. Also yes - you need to feed more than just chicken if you are going to feed raw. My go-to puppy raw feeding advice and menu is here: http://leerburg.com/feedpups.htm. I used this very successfully with my current GSD from 12 weeks old onwards.

Growing puppies eat an amazing amount: I remember putting over a pound of raw chicken wings in front of my pup at 14 weeks and thinking he'll never eat all that. He got himself outside of them in under 5 minutes.

Quite a few folk on this board feed raw, so if you are thinking about going this route don't hesitate to ask if you need help.

If my vet tried to give a sick puppy a 5-way vaccination I'd find another vet. JMHO.

Sarah

Thank you all for your really good advice. It's weird, since we took the samples in on Friday, I'd decided the worms could have been maggots and varying stages of growth because we've not seen anything else since. There was this horrible pile that could be described as a jellyfish looking glob on Friday night that I couldn't bring myself to touch it looked so bad and then the rest have been completely free - at least visibly. However, I just heard back from the vet and although the cat's clear, the puppy tested positive for roundworm, coccidia, and giardia. Since he's been through so much, the vet wants to space out treatments of Nemex for roundworms, then Ponazuril for the Coccidia and then Metronidazole for Giardia. I will give him the medications because I'd be afraid not too, but I will always wonder if his body hasn't shed all the bad things on it's on with the raw diet. He just looks so different and his poops are really good.

For those of you who feed raw, do you think it's necessary to change or add anything to his diet until after the treatments? He's doing very well, so I don't really want to change anything. Also, where do you feed your dog and how do you clean up the "dining area" and the pup after a meal?

Panacur hits both giardia and roundworms so I don't see why he won't use it.

In some places the giardia has become metronidazole resistant as well so Panacur looks like the winner. He went to vet school and might have a reason for deciding not to use it but it might be worth asking about. If he doesn't have any reason to not use it you might ask if he would be okay with giving you the dosage for the 10% suspension of fenbendazole sold for use in sheep/goats. It's cheaper if you need multiple rounds of it and with the roundworms you most likely will need at least one 5 day course for roundworms+giardia and then at least a second 3 day course to mop up the remaining roundworms a few weeks later.

I treated all my dogs with the 10% suspension marked for sheep/goats using a dosage provided by my vet when I got my pup with pyrantel resistant roundworms. Same stuff the vets get but for some reason it's not allowed to be sold OTC for use in dogs. It cost me a quarter of what I would have paid with the powdered stuff approved for OTC sale in dogs. I gave it mixed into meat flavored baby food and my pups loved it.

Good to see a vet using ponazuril for cocci. Albon seems to take forever and just really not work all that well in a lot of cases.

It's a bit of a pain but if you normally take him outside to potty in the back yard you might use the front yard for a bit. That way he isn't constantly walking in the same area he just pooped in. Some people end up treating their yard so the pup doesn't re-infect himself but at this point it's likely he just got it from the breeders place.

If it were me I would not keep feeding just chicken quarters, especially because he's got some health stuff going on. i would want more balanced nutrition for a growing puppy - actually for any dog. I don't think it's going to hurt his tummy to start introducing new things a little at a time. Are you familiar with The Honest Kitchen dehydrated food? That would be an easy way to still feed raw but depend on the honest kitchen to supply the nutrients you're missing until you learn how to feed raw. They have grain free so I'd go with that and chicken backs. JMO