Originally posted by Richard Cannon:
I didn't realize that the video recomended the ecollar?

Richard, the beginning video does not go into the out in detail. the video Ed will be producing on the out will discuss proper use of the collar....stay tuned for that, I told Ed that there is a need for this video as this thread is making more clear.

I do know the video does not recommend holding a dogs feet off the ground by the toy until he lets go...just the opposite. I for one don't want my dog to think if his feet are held off the ground (by me or a helper) that this is a cue for the out.

We need to get something correct here. This thread is about how Bernhard teaches the OUT. Not about what other people perceive as the correct way to teach the out.

For the record - in my opinion the way that Bernhard does this training is the correct way. Are there other ways? Yes. Do I agree with most of them? No. Do these other ways make sense? No. Should people who don’t train sport dogs be offering advice on training the OUT in Schutzhund? No

Now back to Bernhards methods.

You do not start to train the out-“ because you feel it’s the right time to train the Out." There is an exact time to start this training. You start to train the out when you cannot bribe the dog with a piece of food or another toy to release his grip on the prey. There is no other time to train the out.

When you cannot bribe the dog - then its time to train the OUT. Not before this. I make this very clear in both of my videos.

The question of getting the prey item away and the dog anticipating the out is a good question. But it also tells me that the trainer needs to go back and review the training tape.

I explained in detail in the tape how to stop a dog from anticipating an OUT. I detail the steps for the drive work - you make drive with your dog (during which you praise the living hell out of the dog for making drive) - you allow the dog to grip - you run with the dog - then either take him into your arms, or play tug again. The out comes from the arm not from running.

From the arm you either run again, play tug again or Out. Do too much of one thing and you create a problem. The bottom line is you only need to out the dog one time a day - that’s at the car to take the tug away. New trainers get it in their mind that THEY NEED TO TRAIN THE OUT !!!! WRONG !!!!!!!!!! Training the out is easy. Training the calm carry is hard.

When a dog will not trade the prey item for food or another prey item then the out needs to be trained with a flank (on a young dog) or a leash correction or a second handler leash correction or an electric collar. What is used depends on the dog, its age, its temperament, its drive or the level of experience of the handler.

The electric collar is the last resort and should only be used when the handler understands how to use a collar.

Lifting the feet off the ground to get a dog to out is not the right way to do this. At least not according to Bernhard and certainly not according to me. Will it work? Yes - is it productive? No. In fact it is very unproductive for sport training and should not be used. It creates problems because a dog can anticipate an OUT when it gets a tight lead.

The only time we want a dog to OUT is when we tell him to Out. We want the dog to maintain the grip through every circumstance - we don't want a dog to anticipate an out because the helper or the handler does something (other than the handler giving the command to out) Lifting the feet off the ground creates a situation where the dog can anticipate the out.

When the out is done properly at the right age @ 14 weeks (if the drive work has been done properly) it becomes a non-issue with the dog.

When it’s an older dog it becomes more complicated. One of the next videos that I produce will be training the out. It is one of the most misunderstood parts of dog training. It creates more problems than it should and it is not that hard to train. I literally have hours of raw footage on this subject. I just need to find the time to put it on a DVD.

But because it is such an important part of training for the sport I will step in and stop bad information on this subject. This is not open to interpretation - new trainers need good information and I won't allow blah blah blah blah blah opinions on this subject on my board.

Thanks all for the help. I guess that sometimes when you put a question out there it forces people to rethink their methods and hopefully learn something. Our goal here is to learn from each other and the mistakes we have made in the past to develop methods that have proven to be most effective...right?

Thanks again...

With all due respect Michael the purpose of this board is not to learn from each other but to further the financial gain of Leerburg. Any training methods that are contrary to Leerburg's videos are scorned upon and even banned. Why? Maybe the training is wrong. Or, maybe it's simply contrary to the philosophy of the training videos, which undoubtedly generate a good cash flow for Leerburg. So why would they allow anyone to preach anything other than that which is pro-Leerburg? Again, it AIN'T about "learning from each other". It's about $$$$$$$$$$$$$$.

On the other hand there are always dummies who are clueless and would not know good dog training when it stares them in their eyes. If you have a problem with the way I run my board - take it to a private email. This board is about dog training - either keep it there or take your attitude someplace else.

Frawley, you're the last person who should be preaching about "ego". I'm not one of your hero worshipers. Incidentally I don't have any problem with your bored. It's humorous and entertaining and it's worth exactly what I pay for it.

Hmmm. . .is redneck something that can be treated? If it is, can someone mail Russ the info so he can seek help?