Originally posted by lola monty:
I'm asking the question is that type of show conformation detrimental to the abilities needed for shutzhund/protection work assuming that we have 2 dogs to compare of the same cardivascular/muscle type, etc. Simply a structure question. Yes it is

Yep, wolves can run forever and their side gait is fluid as all get out. From the front and rear, they are often hocky as hell, east-west and braid, weave and paddle. And they are rarely very deep chested, most of the time the sternum is above or even with the elbows.

My best friend (dobie breeder) never could finish "Dances with Wolves" because the wolf was so hocky!

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

OK, I just had to say it, but when people start trying to make horses out of dogs (I'm thinking show dobies -- long neck, heavy head, short back/croup, hyper-angulated rear), or trying to make dogs perfectly straight fore and aft, or putting their chests 1/2 way down the length of their forelegs, something's just gotta get broken.

I wish AKC show people had the guts to just say "But it's a pretty deformity, and I like to look at it." rather than trying to hide behind "improving the structure of *whatever*" breed. When I was a kid (50's), I thought bull terriers were the most beautiful dogs on earth. You couldn't give me what's in the show ring now.

Anybody else notice the tendency over the last 10 or so years to attempt a flying trot on many more breeds? There was a chow out in the mid-late 90s that was doing a lot of winning, and it moved like a show GSD. I've noticed it creeping into the terrier rings, too.

The best moving dogs, with the best feet and legs I've ever seen are track greys, hunting coonhounds (english, walker, plott) and pointers. If it's out doing the job, the structure will stay correct for the work. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Stephan, all I can say to that is AMEN!

I have an over-angulated show line shepherd that will run most dogs straight into the ground. I am not saying that this is normal but these kinds of conversations led to the show shepherd looking the way it does 30 years ago, you only have the benefit of their mistake. check the hips and elbows, check the grip and drives and the conformation will be o.k. Try to remember that they were only 'breeding to improve the breed' the akc motto I personally think that is a very arrogant statement from breeders but I see it all the time.

Great replies everyone <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

One of the reasons i like the working lines i must admit is because they look better <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> , they aren't overangulated and have flat backs. Show people will state that they are poorly conformed and will break down much earlier than the new modern designed GSD. The conformation of the GSD, they say should be based around what's needed for a dog to tend sheep all day. But the ironic thing is the original dogs who spend there lives working harder than show dogs( I'm referring to American and German showlines) look nothing like them. They were like that for hundreds of years, the Altdeutscher Hütehunde ( still found in Germany and the ancestor of the GSD) looks nothing like them either. You think if they were so poorly conformed they would break down as predicted by show breeders, but no they don't. In response to this the show people say the conformation of the modern GSD will theoretically prove better than the working GSD's and the original dogs. I'd look at the herding bloodline GSD's and the old herding dogs who are out in the field proving themselves structurally and mentally. Stephan put it well in this quote

 Quote:

If it's out doing the job, the structure will stay correct for the work.

If the dogs are out there proving themselves the correct structure will evolve naturally in the field at work as the farmer lets only the fittest and best working dogs breed. The modern GSD structure evolved in the show ring not in the field, because of that I think there will always be some doubt about it on a functional basis.

I got a lot of this information from this website, a good read if anyone is interested in learning more about conformation <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

http://www.shawlein.com/The_Standard/Index_Page/Index_Page.htm

The america showlines as everyone knows are way over angulated, this creates a dog which prefers to trot rather than gallop and limits the dog physically in jumping and running, which a working dog must excel at too.
The German showlines have less extreme angulation and is more balanced so the dog can sufficiently trot all day yet still perform well in jumping and galloping. The less angulation a dog has the more specialised it will be at galloping- considering the GSD in its line of work knowadays as a police dog not a herding dog,less angulation is not going to make any difference. Dogs with less angulation in the hindquaters can still excel physically at herding anyway.
I'm not really sure where the roach back originated from with the German showlines ( Was the Martin's in the 70/80's?? )but it is not necessary, a firm back is necessary. Not a weak, saging back which is worse than a roach back.
The roach back is better to be able to withstand downward pressure. For example with rodents, they have roach backs which is an esssential trait for burrowing animals with the threat of falling earth above. However it is not really efficient for the GSD. The curvature of the spine does not transmit power as well as a straight one when in movement, nor does it straighten when needed, such as when a dog is galloping and jumping. A lot of enery is wasted becuse of this poorer transmission in a roached dog, tiring it quicker.
The most efficient spine in a dog is one which is only slightly arched, just so that in a fit dog is apparent as a arch in the loin muscles but the visible topline over the back remains straight. A visible curvature of the spine is too much because it will buckle when stress is applied in the form of drive and the roach is more prominant.
A long back as in american showline dogs is not good either because it can lead to a sway back when older and reduces agility when the back needs to flex quickly ( during galloping and jumping).

Sorry i've gone on a bit <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> hope I didn't get you all too bored.