I am going to refresh this because I don't want my little survey lost because I was out training dogs.

I hope you add me to your tally. Do I need to state on which side that vote goes?

Well, for clarity if nothing else.

NO, I don't use them and I will not use them.

Richard,
I'll have my K-9's prong REGULAR. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
I'm with you on not using a Sharpened prong <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Any dog that needed this type of correction would most likely be too much for me to deal with. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

I would like to think both my dogs work for me because the enjoy it, not because they are afraid
of me. (still believe that corrections are a necessary part of training)
I always end each training session on a positive note for my dogs and myself.
These discussions sure have enlightned my thoughts on different training methods, they can differ so much.
Vancamp- do you use a prong or slip choke collar?

One of the problems I have with a sharpened prong is that I don't feel it leaves any room for the higher level- "correct the snot out of him" correction, without doing serious damage. You wouldn't know just how hard you could throw a correction until you actually punctured the dog. After trying to evaluate it honestly, and without prejudice, it doesn't sound to me like it offers enough as a tool to give it a try. Like others have said, it's probably an idea that should have never made it past the thinking chair.

Richard if you feel that you can take a high drive, say medium temperment, train it, and teach it a new behavior and the dog will be reliable and sure, you are mis-leading people. There is no way you are going to making a lasting immpression on a dog like that. Take a dog that has a hard temperment, you can jerk from now until the cows come home, and the results will not be what you desire. Perhaps a soft dog, then of course, this is not the type of dog that needs a prong. But again really there is no diffrence in a tight fitting prong and a loose sharp-prong used correctly, except I feel that the sharp prong turns the dogs nerves on a little more with the high drive medium dogs. If you have a fighter then you have better control, as you can step-up your level of correction beyond the normall prong, without choking the dog to pass out. The same goes for the e-collar. I don't care who is using it, you will not get through to a hard dog with a level one. He most likely will not notice it, and if you goal is to leave an immpression, then you are wasting time and effort. I am not saying though to fry him, he must not stress to the point to where he cannot learn. If you are discouraging a bad habit, like dog fighting, I feel that the dog must understand that if he even thinks about fighting then the stress will come down on him. If I correct the dog with a sharp-prong , or a good hard correction with a regular prong, then my guess is he will not require another correction to fight dogs again, maybe a little reminder but nothing like the first one. Harsh,. I have seen too many dogs injured from fighting. Yes it is my goal to quickly deter a dog fight. Dog fighting is useless.
I feel, that the image of taking a sharp-prong and making the dog perform is what people are thinking here. This is not the case. I have never said that I would not not recommend reward training. But pressure as you said has to come into play at some point with some dogs. And if you think that you can take a tough problem dog and train a behaviour out of him, well then Mr. Bus Driver you will most likely make a stop on the way to school, at the hospital. Why? I have watched this total food and ball stuff fail time and time again with tough dogs,and people get hurt because they cannot control the dog with the collar they have. Anyone that thinks that the collar does not make a diffrence in the dogs response, good or bad, is only fooling themselves. Timing is important, I 100% agree with you, but the level of complusion is also very important. You must execise commen-sense when training, and think about what you are doing But this no,no to the sharp-prong, I am sorry most likley 1/2 of the dogs in Schutzhund that are working at the top are or were trained with this tool at some point.
As far as taking 6-8 months to train a dog, most Police Departments do not have this kind of time, nor do a lot of home owners, so compulsion must be brought in. Not a "little please don't do that", but a black and white pressure. Each dog is diffrent and pressure cannot be applied to everydog the same way, but your point is that the amount of pressure is not important, just the timing, I am sorry but we will have is disagree on this. I feel that the two elements both play a major role in training. One cannot go without the other. If I over correct a dog, but the timing was right, chances are, I can bring him around and out of the pressure, but if I under correct, and my timing is off, this serves no purpose to anyone, as you have just caused a lot of conflict in the dog.
I am not suggesting to anyone to take a prong and put it to the grinding stone and train thier dog, but just sharing ideas. That is the great thing about this board. We can all share info. and help each other. I have learned plenty from all of the regulars on this board, so I hope that this issue does not cause any hard feelings.

Michael,

Sorry, but on this issue you are just plain wrong. The point you keep trying to make is that you feel you can't make an adequte correction with normal tools. People have been doing it for years. And no I am not misleading people. Teaching poeple to make corrections takes a little time and effort, but that is all.

My guess is if a PD broke out your sharpend prong they would be cited by thier local animal control for cruelty, properly.

Now I, and everybody elese on this board, are not going to convince you. I have seen other people get an idea in their heads and destroy dogs because they can't accept that they are the problem in training a dog. I have watched those people see it done and then deny that it happens. With one dog I saw 3 different people get the dog to respond on flat collars and nylon slips, and then say the dog couldn't be trained without a prong (and then an e-collar). He just couldn't accept that the problem was him, he had to blame the dog.

All the types of problems you mention have been safely cured with a slip collar and flat only. No need to resort to cruelity. If dogs and owners are injured it is a handling error, in every single case I have seen, period. You argue that a PD doesn't have time to train properly, then what you are saying is that when they take a dog that is already trained and they can't maintain the training. I suggest they get a new trainer or get out of the buisness, because those are training and handling issues. A sharpend prong or any other tool won't cure it.

Yeah I have been nailed a couple of times, they were all my fault. A sharpened prong would have made no difference. It is going to happen if you train dogs. With serious issues I can make an impression in short order on any dog I need to. People chose tools they believe in, they make those tools work. Some of the top trainers in the country are on this board, how many times have you seen this tool recomended? In another thread, yesterday, this tool was offered to some of them and they declined to use it as unnecessary. They cured the problem with low level e-stim. This is just the type of tool that gets us a bad name for the training we do.

It takes time to train a dog properly. It takes a proper foundation. When you are advocating the use of this tool it is becasue a problem had been created months, or even years, before. And now you want to cure it all at once. That won't work with any tool. Training is a continum, not a one shot deal. In addition you provide a false sense of securty that one or two corrections can fix a problem that took a long time to create. That will more likely allow for the problem to re-occur because the handler isn't prepared to deal with it. I would certainly hope that you are not recomending this tool be left on a dog all the time, but it sounds like you are. This is something that would be dangerous on a dog on a consistant basis, even more than other collars because the prongs had been modified.

In short there is no reason that you have put forward to justify this tool. The closest is that you can't get a proper correction with another tool. That is a poor example to put forward. The reason the other tools have survived so long is that they work, without modification. If a sharpened prong had that kind of value they would be manufactured that way. They aren't. No I won't convince you, but I hope to have convinced others. That has been my goal.

I am closing this topic, as I have been requested to do.