In reality, as much as Van Camp would love to deny it, looks do make a difference. If it didn't he would be breeding Mals to GSDs to strengthen both breeds. In fact the Dutch do breed the Dutch Shephard to the Mal to improve both. But it isn't the sole, over riding concern. There are even those of us that Show in conformation with some of our dogs, that are working dogs first. There is an obligation to leave the breed better than you found it if you decide to breed. If appearance didn't matter, there would not be the uniforimty of both temperament and appearance seen in dog lines. Just go look at the pictures of Ed's dogs. In some breeds, like the GSD, conformation in the show ring has one so far out the window that there is no way a working dog can compete. In some other breeds that isn't the case. I know of a good Giat breeder that does well in both the show ring and SchH. It can be done, but it is much harder to do than to breed for either conformation or work.

As much as the conformation people would like you to believe, a working dog has been bred for temperament and stability. In most cases the dogs are quite capable of living as a pet just fine. Now I do have a bit of a gripe with what some working lines have become, with dogs that are rank and overly sharp, but that is an exception rather than a rule.

I don't think anyone here will honestly say that looks are not important, just not a major criteria for breeding. We even had a poll, not to long ago, on which GSD color we liked the best, but most agreed that they would choose a dog that performed, even if it was last on their color list. I showed Terriers in AKC breed and OBd ring for a number of years and put CHs and OBd titles on a number of dogs. I may, some day, go back to the OBd ring, but will never, NEVER go back to the breed ring. I saw to many dyed,drugged,altered dogs to last a lifetime, just for the sake of looks. A lavender blue Kerry Blue Terrier will pop your eyes out, and the dog wasn't even dismissed from the ring, much less disqualified. Look at some of the better working dog web sites. You will see a lot of beautiful WORKING dogs. As everyone on the board who know me, knows my next dog will be a WORKING GSD. Hang around and pick their brains, Even the ones who snap and snarel really know their stuff.

Just want to add my .02 cents. I also want to say that I am no expert on working dogs, and everything that I did learn was on this board <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I was born and raised in Europe and I have seen lots of GSD, dobes, rotts there. When I came to N.A. I was amazed, no actually shocked when I saw the GSD here. No comparison whatsoever. My friend, has had GSD all his life in Europe, when he came here he decided to get another one. Not knowing any better he bought a GSD from show lines. The dog - a complete disaster in every aspect. First of all, the dog was not a good looking one, even though all the show people couldn't believe how gorgeous he was <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />
He was about 27 inches at the shoulders and about 10 at the hips. He was very thin boned, and his head was more like a collie's than a GSD.

The dogs temperament is a totally different story. He was well socialized from the beginning, and never abused in anyway, yet he was completely terrified of EVERYTING. When people came over to my friend's house he would hide in the basement and wait for everyone to leave before he came out. My friend tried taking him to ob. but the dog was so scared that he wouldn't even go in the building. Once he did go in the building he was so stressed of all the people and dogs that he could' even concentrate on learing anything. So is it worth breeding a dog with this kind of temperamet. BTW the breeder strongly encourages my friend to breed his dog.

Now my two dobes are from europe. Mostly show lines with some working lines. Still every dog in their pedigrees has at least IPO I, and quite a few with IPO III titles. And I have to say I am pretty happy with their teperaments. They are not soft, and they are not spooks.

I was at the vets office couple of days ago with my boy, and there was this lady that breeds show dobes, she asked where I got my dog from, and I told her from europe. She just freaked, and told me that she hoped I wasn't planning on breeding him, because the "viscious and overly aggressive" dobes should not be crossed with the american bloodlines beacuse they will ruin the american dobe. The american breeders have done so much to "improve and stabilize" the dobe's teperament and the boodlines should not be "tainted" by the european dogs. My blood just about boiled in my vains.

I guess what I'm tring to say is that if you have a dobe, GSD, rott etc.. you should be breeding so that the dogs will be able to do the work they were originally bred to do. If you breed hunting dogs they should be bred to hunt etc... If you're not breeding for that, then why in the world are you breeding in the first place. I don't think that Louis Dobermann bred his dogs to be pretty in the ring. He bred them to be working dogs. Why would breeders sacrifice the dog's stable temperament to make a pretty dog. And who said that dogs from working lines are ugly anyways. I think they're way better looking than the thin boned, "gotta look for a weenie to see whether it's a male or female" show dogs anyways. Of course the dogs have to have proper structure to do the work, and I don't think that the slopey back of the amercian GSD can permit them to do the work even if the temperament did.

Sorry for the long post <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Nice post.

Ask what happened at the board meeting after the WUSV; when an example of an'American Shepherd" was held up and the delegate from the group held his head in his hands......

Hello. Some of you guys know me as the novice on the doberman board. I once asked you guys a question about how much it might cost for a good working line dobe. If I remember correctly the general opion was about 1500 to 2000 + possibly a plane ticket. I have looked at prices for GSDs on this site which Im sure are great dogs. Guess how much (Im sure most of you already know). I can see how the GSDs became more available. I can walk up the street and see about 4 r 5 GSDs and not 1 dobe (I have lived in 3 different states in the past 3 years and 3 in Germany before that and it was the same everywhere, yes eveywhere) . Granted these dogs are probably not working line dogs but I think it gives you a good paralel.

Hello. Some of you guys know me as the novice on the doberman board. I once asked you guys a question about how much it might cost for a good working line dobe. If I remember correctly the general opion was about 1500 to 2000 + possibly a plane ticket. I have looked at prices for GSDs on this site which Im sure are great dogs. Guess how much (Im sure most of you already know). I can see how the GSDs became more available. I can walk up the street and see about 4 r 5 GSDs and not 1 dobe (I have lived in 3 different states in the past 3 years and 3 in Germany before that and it was the same everywhere, yes eveywhere) . Granted these dogs are probably not working line dogs but I think it gives you a good paralel. So for me its a no brainer. I will be looking for that IMO 2000 dollar much better looking (oh yeah I said it looking) no tail to clear the table having not half as much hair shedding all over the place and last but not least not looking like a third of the dogs on the planet dog.
Now I am admittidly a novice ( I read a lot more than I post) and I get a lot of good info on this board and I do respect most of the people on here. I will however say that it is hard to get a lot of objective view points on this kinda of comparison on here. But this topic illustrates that there are exceptions but unfortunatly not the rule. Thats why I usually just post on the Dobe board.
finally please excuse my little rant and my lack of spelling ability.

PAULINE,
The way you speak, sounds like the UK mentality !

Over here breeders claim that you are getting a guard dog, that will naturally guard, when you buy any of the guard breeds.
even though they are all from show lines.

This is utter rubbish !

The breeder you bought your dobes from claims that they would all guard the house !

How does she know ?
Its a sales tactic, hype!

If they dont breed for protection and schutz and actively prove it, then where are those traits suddenly going to appear from?
MAGIC perhaps !

I know hordes of people that purchased , so-called guard breeds, and then found out that their dog couldnt look after itself, let alone the owner !

And of course breeders will claim, thats how they are meant to be, big cuddley teddies !

Guard breeds are not guards by virtue of their name, but by therir proven guarding ability !!

99% of people buying a guard breed, want it to be able to guard, for this it needs strong nerves.

If the dog isnt bred with this in mind then it wont happen.

Sometimes the owner then changes his/her tune, and says that they only want a big cuddly teddy anyway, as a way of saving face.

A working dog that is incapable of work is not true to the breed and is therfore a FAKE !

In the Uk Schutz is frowned on by many breeders, claiming its dangerous.
Thats why we dont have many good working specimens over here !!!!
But we have loads of great fakes !

The Dobbie vs. GSD or the GSD vs. any breed seems to be an active debate. Why? Because everybody seem to be aiming at the top breed.

The strenghts of the Dobermann is he is usually a one person dog (It was once said, that if you can touch him you can have him.) This was the dare of the Doberman,so loyaty? He has less hair to shed (GSD has lots of hair), The Dobbie probably runs a little faster he is very agile (inbreed greyhound), very high energy, his temperment if sound is sharp and aggressive with strangers and watchful. Even the owner he will have to watch quick moments. A good one on the tug/shelve acts like a large Malinois kinda very aggressive. His looks and actions (that doberman's spin)can be a strong deterrant.

His weakness are he can be handler aggressive if corrected strongly or if he deems it unfair, He does not like real cold weather, He can play rough with his children (not to mention a strange child) if they run from him or around him, he is usally dog aggressive (these can be worked out). The above is concerning a good dobbie.

The last dobbies I helped with were afraid of there own shadow, they just didn't have any of the traits that these dogs are known for, They looked like big strong dobermanns but were more like a poddle. No prey drive or very little, No interest in anything but dog food, in a bowl.

So the difference I've Observed in GSD and Dobbies is my kids or other kids can run around my GSDs all they want, they use to play football with and around my dogs. The GSD understands this is play and not to use his teeth on anything but the ball (he even seemed to know which side he was own, usually my son's). But when I want to play grown up games like Protection/Tracking/Obedenice he is game for that too. The difference is Intelligence/Stability ... I guess any dog could be socailizied to events, (but would they know which side to line up on).

Really if you want a dog for a family pet, make sure you know something about the breed past and present. And base the family/dog structure around that. A guard dog like the Doberman needs training at a early age. I go back to the idea that Eddie on Frasier seems so tame and cute, but that not the nature of a Jack Russle Terrier. The average one is all over the place part cat/part miniature pit bull. Training makes them cute and saves your socks. Training makes YOU safe with a Dobermann or guard/herding dog. I like the Dobermann from afar, I really do. But rarely can you find one with the strenghts mentioned above.

Even that's lacking when compared to an average GSD. My dogs are not the really super dogs you read about on this forum. But they will try and do anything asked of them. But only when asked, most of the time. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

OK this thread has been kicked around for about a month now. I think it's time to move on. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />