I have an Australian Cattle Dog with a growling problem.

It began when I brought a 2nd dog into picture: they have a high energy relationship, lots of playful aggression in play time.

The growling has spilled over. He has growled at my toddler.

My objective is to draw the boundary sharply for growling: no growling close to humans. To do this I am considering setting him up for instant hard corrections. I have a 12" gripper drag leash and a prong. On a flat collar he occasionally trips on the drag leash, thus pulling it, but doesn't mind it. He is a pain stoic.

I wonder if it would be recommended to attach short light drag leash to prong on dead setting.

FYI and to respond to anticipated concerns: The only interaction with my son is minutely supervised games of toss that both tremendously enjoy, and involve an obedience component: ie my son, from my lap throws kong to dog who remains in downstay to catch. He is generally very cheerful and friendly with older children and very playful: sees kids as toy throwers.

I'd describe the ACD as dominant, typically cheerfully pushy, but a bit sharp if uncomfortable, likes his "space", and with me handler soft: with me he is very compliant. His nerves I would describe as being less than perfect and probably typical of ACDs.

In many respects, and in his drives, he is a very solid dog.

rgds, andrew may

I have not had a dog of that breed, but could I go back to the beginning of your question? I think I would've modified that "no growling around humans" to "no growling, period" when I saw that it was spilling over and out of control. (Playful dog-to-dog growling in general is not what I mean here; I refer to the out-of-control growling you describe.) If no growling was ever allowed from either dog in normal no-stranger no-threat situations, wouldn't that be easier to nip in the bud and gain control over? Of course, it would mean your presence at each interaction for some time, but maybe you are present anyway.

I'd be interested in hearing opposing viewpoints about this. I like to make rules as clearly-defined and black-and-white as I possibly can, especially when there's unwanted aggression involved.

I'm hoping someone will reply specifically on appropriate use of the prong collar with a light drag lead. Has anyone ever done this. Does the "drag" result in inappropriate dog-induced corrections that are distracting or unpleasant for the dog.

I put the prong collar on my own neck and didn't find it that bad, even with a good tug. This dog is not pain sensitive.

The intra-species growling begins with spirited, jousting, play growling between a male ACD and a female Beauceron.

ACD's must rank high in the category of ornery, growly breeds. They are cattle dogs bred to take it from and give it to outback steers. They don't back down, yet can be very soft with handler, and have very high drives. They have Dingo way back and have a natural suspicious streak, an ingrained wariness of where the next hoof might be coming from, but are bred to stay on it after a kick and go right back at it with renewed vigour. I see some malinois sites boasting "high natural aggression" and I'd say my ACD has that even if he is not overly "civil". He's also a loving, cheerful dog, who tones it down when playing supervised fetch with kids, and in drive is spirited and confident.

The problem growling occurs when they start to play in the house. This is effectively cut short and is against the rules. They get house time in the evening, training in morning, exercise after work.

The other situation involves attention seeking when both dogs are present in the house.

Following what I now believe to be bad advice, previously I had been stopping providing him attention when he growled (at the other dog) while I petted him, and she approached.

Now I've been following the guidelines in the Leerburg basic obedience CD set on this point: petting the alpha ACD first and pushing the Beauceron away during this time, then reversing.

The advice in the CD works very well but is not the whole answer.

What else I've done so far:

increased the amount of obedience I do with both dogs: both basic obedience and Flinks style B.H. obedience, which both dogs love: I'm amazed how they look forward to it. There is no hint of handler aggression or dominance. He loves the cradle and always drops the ball on string on command.

I recognized that the ACD finds constantly competing with the Beauceron stressful, and reduced shared yard time, increased kennel time, and increased one-on-one time with me.

I corrected for growling when it could be done effectively with very sharp correction: by using a drag line on a dead bolted fur saver or flat collar.

taken away his one kennel toy, a kong, even though he has never been toy possessive with humans.

It has markedly reduced, but not completely eliminated the growling.

I view the drag lead and prong as a means to instantly correct more powerfully in the house in the evening, if he growls at a time I am effectively providing him exclusive attention.

I am reluctant to "hang" him as I don't think his issues require that extreme a correction, and in our first obedience class 6 years ago we used a choke collar that may have done some damage to his air passage.

Anyway, putting it all out there so I can learn from people who have walked this mile ahead of me. thanks

rgds andrew may

Even a drag lead without a loop could, I think, end up causing unexpected/inappropriate "corrections." WITH a loop would be even worse, since the loop is so easy to get a rear leg tangled in. (I think the drag leads with loop handles are a terrible idea anyway.)

I'd be afraid to attach a drag lead to a prong collar, unless you mean that this would be with your constant attendance and attention.

I'd like to hear more about this from people with longer experience. My gut reaction is strongly negative, but maybe it's just because I've never seen a drag lead attached to a prong collar.

Andrew:

I meant "longer experience" than mine........not yours!

I’m experienced with general obedience but new to protection training. I have a question about prong collars.

I learned that they were for use during training/walking sessions and that’s all, because of more continuous use being such a hindrance to the dog’s ability to lie down comfortably and because of the increased possibility of inappropriate/accidental corrections.

I’m also new to this site. I’ve read two references in a couple of days about leaving them on in the house in what sounded like relaxing-with-family periods. One involved attaching a training lead to a prong for fast corrections indoors and the other was a reference to needing the family’s approval so the prong could be kept on in the family home as well as in the park where training took place.

I’m asking for opinions/information. Are my ideas about training tools old or outmoded, or maybe irrelevant in training heavy-coated protection animals?

In both of these instances, the dog would be supervised, Connie. It's NEVER been suggested to leave the prong on the dog when he is not able to be supervised. Also, if the drag leash is short enough (say 2-3 feet), then there is little chance of the dog stepping on it and causing an accidental correction.

It's also a good thing to put the collar on and take it off throughout the day/evening/whatever, so that it has no meaning to the dog. If you just put it on before training sessions, the dog learns that he can get away with disobeying until the collar goes on; but if you put it on and take it off of him randomly, then he never makes any association at all. It just becomes part of his routine, like with my dog and the e-collar. It's part of her daily routine to have it put on in the morning and taken off when we go to bed at night. It means nothing to her, so she behaves just as well when she isn't wearing the collar as she does when she is wearing it. When I work her on the prong (which is seldom now), I put it on her 10-15 minutes before we go out, and leave it on her for 10-15 minutes after we come back in. She seems to have no problem lying on the floor while wearing it, either stretched out on her side, or on her belly with her head either on the floor between her front paws or on a front paw.

Thanks, Kristen -- this is exactly what I was hoping for in the way of answers: complete, straightforward, and common-sense. Thanks for taking the time!

Post script:

I have now given the cattle dog two very sharp prong collar corrections for "ambient growling" around my Beauceron in the house, and it has stopped. 2-3 months since last correction.

First correction caused a yelp and an alarmed snarl but then submission.

Second correction a few days later followed by submissive behaviour and no further growling.

now no more "ambient growling."

It worked. rgds andrew may