I have been going back and forth on the raw diet idea for some time now. I have decided that for the health of my youngest dog, Kato, it is now a must. He has suffered with an undiagnosed skin problem for about 6 months. It was originally thought to be localized demodex. But that was not the case. We tried an elimination diet and it seemed to be a beef allergy. It is not that either!! My vet recommended that I switch him to a raw diet. Yes, my vet said raw. No grains, no veggies or carbs of any kind. I am so lost on where to even begin. I have searched almost every website on feeding raw to get a break down of foods to feed, how much, how often, etc. For my two shepherds combined, according to my calculations, it equals out to be 75 lbs of RMB, 50 lbs of Muscle meat, and 7 lbs of Organ meat a month. Can that be right? If I buy in bulk, how do I know how much to thaw and when? I am so confused!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> What I need is step by step directions and a supply list. It all seems so overwhelming right now.

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.......What I need is step by step directions and a supply list. It all seems so overwhelming right now.

This list of raw FAQs covers every question about raw:
http://www.njboxers.com/faqs.htm
and more:
http://www.njboxers.com/more.htm
It doesn't matter at all that it's a Boxer site. It's one of my never-fail "go to" sites for raw issues. There are even sample meals to give you an idea of the big picture.

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.....This list of raw FAQs covers every question about raw:
http://www.njboxers.com/faqs.htm
and more:
http://www.njboxers.com/more.htm
It doesn't matter at all that it's a Boxer site. It's one of my never-fail "go to" sites for raw issues. There are even sample meals to give you an idea of the big picture.

P.S. I looked at their sample meal (which is actually a DAY's worth of food) just to double-check on their advice about oil supplementation, and I want to add that for a dog who might have allergy issues, I'd probably use fish oil rather than flax oil for the Omega 3s, since I've known dogs who were allergic to flax seeds. So far I haven't run into any who were allergic to fish oil.

You'll want pharmaceutical grade (human grade) distilled fish oil, which leaves behind the heavy metals, like mercury.

And this site includes photos, which you might find helpful:
http://touchmoon.com/dotters/raw/rawprep.html

Also, I'm wondering a little bit about the "no vegetables" part. Many people eliminate all the cereal carbs and even all the starchy vegetables, but I think most of the well-known pioneers of raw feeding recommend some greens (even if just fresh parsley). I use a pretty good assortment of greens, and also some fruit.

I'm wondering if maybe the vet said no grain or starch carbs, which certainly makes sense for a dog with food sensitivities. In my own experience, the usual suspects are either an animal protein or a plant food that contains protein (such as soy, wheat, barley, corn, and the like). I've seen carrot allergies, too, but I suspect that comes from carrots being such a common ingredient in commercial foods. (Allergies generally develop after repeated exposure to the ingredient.) Greens and fruits, though -- not so much.

On the other hand <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />, if after reading the web sites you think you will prefer to give some vegetable foods, you could certainly add them slowly, later, one a time, "challenging" the dog's system with each one so you could readily identify any problem foods.

I'm definitely NOT second-guessing a vet who recommends raw, believe me! Just something to ask about if you want, once you get going.

Good luck! Good decision!

nancy,
feeding raw is in actuality so much easier and simpler than it seems when you are first starting out. i really sweated it the first year, but now it is a piece of cake.

the biggest challenge at first is finding a reliable and affordable supplier. it's different in every community. try: wild game processors, supermarket meat departments, specialty butchers, slaughterhouses, chicken processing plants...

in my own case, the simplest and easiest turned out to be the local albertson's supermarket meat department. i made friends with one of the butchers, taught him about what my needs and requirements are, and he does the ordering, packages everything up into the right portions for me, and all i have to do is unload it from the back of the car directly to the freezer in the garage.

it DID take me quite a while to get this set up, but the rest of it is easy.

to switch your dogs over, fast them for 24 hours. then feed them each three or four defrosted or fresh chicken necks with all the skin and fat removed. feed them only defatted, deskinned chicken necks for the first few days, and see how they do.

gradually start adding in other meaty bones and organ meats.

i feed:

whole chickens cut up
whole turkeys cut up
turkey necks
beef hearts
beef ribs
pork necks
lamb necks
beef liver
pork shoulder when on sale.

i don't spent more than .99/lb. and i average about .70/lb. i got a 15 cu ft chest freezer so i can take advantage of sales and get free scrap and rib cages during hunting season. the freezer quickly pays for itself.

once or twice a week, feed some ground up veggies mixed with yogurt or cottage cheese. grind up a whole egg with shell with the veggies. mix with hamburger or beef liver or a can of salmon or mackerel to make more palatable.

it's important to feed a variety of foods, to feed organ meats once or twice a week, and to feed pureed veggies once or twice a week. this keeps them from getting impacted from ingesting too much bone.

it's important that the meats be human grade and fresh. it's important that you never try to defrost in the microwave, as cooked bones splinter and cause punctures in the gi tract. i feed frozen all the time, even in the winter.

i also feed outside all year around. i'm not interested in turning it into a housekeeping chore!

as far as how much to feed, don't worry about it! fast them one day a week. at first, they will get skinnier and develop a waist. ideally, you want to be able to see/feel their last two ribs, but not their spine or hip bones. if their last two ribs disappear, feed less. if the hip bones and/or spine appears, feed more.

that's it! and you don't have to feed at the same time every day, or the same amounts every day. it can be quite sporadic. just as long as over time they are maintaining a healthy weight, and over time there is lots of variety. how much variety, at what price, is entirely dependent on where you live and the suppliers you have available to you.

The advice from Connie and Alice pretty much say it all. I'd only add a couple things for someone getting started.

When I started my 2 GSDs on raw, I went with chicken backs for almost all of RMB part. They're not too hard to find in local markets (may have to ask the butcher), not too pricey and have some organ meet to them (BTW, I never really got concerned about the exact organ/muscle balance thing. If you're inclined to, I wouldn't worry about it until you'd gotten comfortable with the whole raw process after a few weeks, a month or so)

In one or more of the books I've read, it suggested about 2% of ideal body weight in raw meat/bones, so for my 60# female, that's about 1-1/4# or 2 good-sized or 3 smaller chicken backs. I buy quantity and freeze 'em in 1-meal sizes in zip-locs. Take one out of the freezer early in the day and it'll be room temp at feeding time. If I forget, I'll defrost it in the microwave.

So that's about 75% of her diet and the rest is veggie glop, fruit, yogurt, cottage cheese, etc. which she gets in no particular set menu pattern.

HTH

Mike

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........When I started my 2 GSDs on raw, I went with chicken backs for almost all of RMB part. .....

Me too. Good ratio of bone to meat, good bones (not weight-bearing or splintery), not fatty, and not pricey.

About the microwave thing: I too occasionally thaw in the microwave, but on low power. Mine has ten settings and I use #2. It's isn't enough power to cook bones (or to cook the meat, even), but it's enough to thaw somewhat.

A sink of warm water works, too -- I don't even take the meat out of the baggie.

BTW, as to your dog's skin problems, my male GSD had some kind of skin problems for a couple years. Allergy tests hadn't shown any huge red flags, had tried different kibbles trying to eliminate various sources, etc., etc., without success. Vet said it was "environmental." We're in So. Calif, on a canyon and there's a lot of stuff in the air, so that sounded reasonable. We finally resorted to daily moderate doses of prednisone and an antithistamine (Atarax and others) to contral the scratching and chewing, knowing that long term use can lead to liver problems.

When I switched to raw, his problems went away in a few days. - not 100%, but probably 95%. I couldn't believe it. So much for environmental causes. And so much for me ever looking at a bag of kibble again.

This skin problem is tearing me up. I feel so bad for him when he scratches and scratches. I keep his nails as short as possible but he still manages to cause bleeding around his one eye and his muzzle. Steroids were an option, but luckily my vet and I agreed that it would not be in Kato's best interest.
Now if you purchase whole chickens, like roasters, how do you go about cutting it up? And do you feed the skin and all? I know that for those of you that have been feeding raw for a while, these seem like dumb questions. But I really want to learn the right ways. And for the dogs that inhale their food? Do you break up the chicken into smaller pieces and feed by hand? Since I have one very slow and picky eater and one that inhales everything, it is going to be a challenge. One other question.. Comparing the cost of dry kibble and feeding raw. If I spend an average of $80 a month on kibble, how much can I expect to spend on raw?

Agree that steroids are not a great choice long term, but I knew there was a trade off when I started them. I tried to keep the dose as low as possible to bring reasonable relief from the scratching/chewing, but not enough to totally eliminate it. My dog never got quite as bad as you describe, but it would've been hard for me to not use something that provided a certain level of relief while I continued to research and explore other options. I don't recall the exact dosage, but the vet felt it was within the limits of what a dog his size could tolereate without causing other problems later on. But I didn't feel like continuing to take that kind of long term gamble. Luckily for my dog, my switch to raw came sooner after a huge price increase in his meds that I refused to absorb.

I think you'll look back and find it wasn't such a challenge after all. I have used whole chickens, but any time in the kitchen takes away from time in the workshop <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> so lately I'm sticking primarily to chicken backs. The price is about the same per lb. as whole, no cutting to do, I stay away from weight-bearing bones, they package/freeze easily and I think a diet of 2-3 of them is a little better balance than an equal portion of a whole chicken. And there'll be at least a little chewing as they can't be swallowed whole, like wings ("sliders") and other small pieces.

My new hyper 2-yr-old female eats a little more than my 8-yr-old male did when he was around as he was slowed by age and bad hips. So I figure my cost for chicken alone for her - at 1-1/4lb/day and avg. 0.70/lb. - is $25/mo., close enough to the cost of kibble to not be a factor. Then there's also the cost of some veggies, eggs, salmon, turkey necks, etc. I looked into joining a local BARF co-op where I could buy a larger variety of meats/fish at much cheaper prices, but there are other "costs" that I'm not intererested in taking on.

I figure with the 2 dogs, I've gone through over 1,000 lbs. of chicken backs with no known digestive distress and vastly improved health, so it's been worth the cost and extra trouble.

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This skin problem is tearing me up. ....

The skin problem is why I mentioned the fish oil supplementation. Omega 3 fatty acids help with inflammation of all kinds, from allergies to arthritis. Omega 3s are abundant in flax oil, too, but flax seeds are a common canine allergen, and fish oil contains a broader spectrum of Omega 3 EFAs.

Why not start with chicken backs and necks, and a cleaver, and you can observe the dogs as they start out. Do they chew? Do they bolt the food? Then you can decide what other RMBs are best for your dogs.

I wouldn't start with the skin or the extra fat, because sometimes dogs new to raw get a little diarrhea. You can add it in gradually over a few days, as a precaution.

The dog who is itchy -- you'll want to add each new protein slowly, observing. If he is allergic to, say, turkey, he will be allergic to raw turkey too. BUT (IMO) the better food he will get from this diet will help his entire system over time and make him less prone to allergies, period -- not to mention that you are removing the common allergens that commercial food is often loaded with.

Why not start that dog with a limited diet (and I see you already know the principle of elimination diets) so you can challenge his system with each new ingredient? If you start him on several protein sources, you will have no easy way to identify any possible culprit if he still has itchies.

I don't know how to compare kibble to raw for cost. In my experience, raw is approximately equal to the high-end canned foods. But the other people on this forum are finding better per-pound prices than I do, and I don't have a big freezer.

P.S. Unless you feed fish regularly, you *will* want to feed fish oil, especially to a dog with itchy skin. The Boxer site gives details about supplementation, but my rule of thumb is to use human grade oil and assume that the label refers to a 150-pound person, adjusting accordingly for your dog's weight. If you decide to feed fish regularly (and gradually, while observing, for the allergic dog), you'll want to choose the low-mercury varieties.

But for the itchy dog, I'd really want to keep it simple and keep my eyes on his skin as you add each new thing. I'd be feeding chicken backs, greens, and fish oil, and that's it, for about three weeks. It may not be the most rounded diet in the world, but it's good enough, and your goal of getting rid of his itchies supports the limited-ingredient approach.

This is all experience and opinion only; I'm not a health professional. I've had several dogs with serious allergies.