Need a helper or trainer in the atlanta area to assist me in ongoing agiation.

Mike,
I have to echo Will's statement. I am moving from Columbus in a couple of weeks, and from Columbus I traveled to Tallahassee every week for the last year to train, because for a lack of better phrase there is some screwed up so-called dog trainers within the 150 mile radius of Atlanta. With the exception of those two. I would recommend Chris Redenbach if you are looking into French Ring. Her club has a very good helper named Darin and they are in the the Duluth, area. You can find them on the NARA website under GEORGIA: http://www.ringsport.org/clublist.htm
Bottom line is I have looked in every corner and hole in GA for people to train with and all I found (with the exception of the above mentioned) were, Well, people full of crap to put it nicely. What type of training are you looking for? If it's PP reality, like Will said, Hit 20E and train with Matt Hammond in Grovetown.

Thanks for your help - far as the ring sports I am really green to this and have little info on them. I think now I just need to continue her bite and drive work. I am not loving any of the trainers that I have taken her to or have spoke with. I have learned alot from the board and the videos. I know I am new to all this. but I think I can train my dog better than anyone else. Am I naive in my thinking? She workes harder for me than she has for anyone that has "trained" with her. Is it uncommon to seek a trainer or decoy just for the agiation work? Or should I be leaning towards one of the ring sports? I don't think I want to get into SchH. It is a sport geared towards the GSD. Don't want her to be the lone Mal there. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" /> The real reason is that I dont want her to become equipment focused on the sleeve. I want her to be more real world and pp driven.

Mike,
When you train with a club, you are the one training your dog per say. You get advice from the knowledgable folks there, and some clubs have a designated head trainer, but you handle your dog always. Also, if you don't agree with something just say no, I'd rather not do that. I'v been to clubs that have social time with the decoys after training where the decoys sit down and play with the dogs after, I refused and said sorry that isn't for me, I rather my dog understand HE is the bad guy, not a play pal.
Matt Hammond is a trainer you can trust to just about go along with what he advises. He wouldn't steer you wrong. I personally would take the drive down there atleast once a week and train with this guy and his crew. They are also apart of the American Street Ring organization, Matt is a certified decoy for ASR. His contact info is below, I highly recommend you call him if you want quality training other than schutzhund in GA period.

CSRA Ring Sport Club
Grove Town, GA
Contacts:
Matt Hammond
Email: matt@qualityk9concepts.com
Phone: 706-631-7592 Cell
706-650-3194 House

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I'v been to clubs that have social time with the decoys after training where the decoys sit down and play with the dogs after, I refused and said sorry that isn't for me, I rather my dog understand HE is the bad guy, not a play pal.

i found this interesting on several levels. if you're training a sport dog and are going to use the SAME helpers EVERY time you train, i could PERHAPS understand this thinking. if you want to train a PPD or PSD, i cannot see why this would be a problem. the dog should engage a THREAT and be confident enough to be social in the right setting (which would be whenever there is no threat present otherwise you'll have a training field dog who only knows how to engage a threat on the training field, which is not a problem for a sport dog). to prohibit your dog from socializing with with the decoy only tells the dog that it should be aggressive toward those specific helpers instead of whoever you tell him/her to.

i am curious to hear why you don't want your dog socializing with a helper.

Tim,
Everyone who has seen one of my dogs (Will R.) can say my dogs are very stable and can be social if I let them but will civil up when necessary or when it's time to work. They will bite when told. To me there is a way to train the dog to be accepting of people without letting them get all this love slobber from the decoy. I just don't see any good in that when training a PPD/PSD but I can see some bad things that **COULD** come from it.
(1) The dog could become confused during it's training and start to respect the decoy which could translate over to respecting the bad guy, he may engage but back off out of respect. Notice I said this could happen, I'v seen it, though not always, but why chance it. The same effect as using the decoy to correct your dog.
(2) The dog takes everyone at friendly value and is not as aloof and on guard as one without decoy social time would be. I want my dogs to always be looking for a threat, but be calm and stable. Dogs with decoy social time IMO are never looking for a threat they are looking to play with their friend (decoy).
I could nit pick a few others but thats the biggest point. A PPD/PSD should be able to be in an enviroment with strangers around and not be trying to eat everyone, I think they should even allow themselves to be petted if you say so, but they should be always scoping out potential threats. The only way to do that effectively is to certainly not let your dog get love slobber from the person they are suppose to wage an ivory war on.
If my dog was ever to have to bite someone in real life, same goes for a PSD when would that dog ever socialize with the perp he just tore into? Therefore, I wish not to create in training something that would not ever happen in real life. Of course this is all JMO, but I believe strongly in this. The club I was training with was in fact a Sport club, French Ring to be exact, where the dogs totally respect the decoys, and decoys correct the dogs at times during training. Which is not a problem if your looking for points and are into French Ring. I was wanting to check out out the sport and it's training but was not going to compromise my fixed principles of training.
I'm curious Tim to your thoughts. Good discussion <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

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Everyone who has seen one of my dogs (Will R.) can say my dogs are very stable and can be social if I let them but will civil up when necessary or when it's time to work.

Then what's the problem?

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(1) The dog could become confused during it's training and start to respect the decoy which could translate over to respecting the bad guy, he may engage but back off out of respect. Notice I said this could happen, I'v seen it, though not always, but why chance it. The same effect as using the decoy to correct your dog.

then we're talking about borderline dogs here. a dog with fight drive who views the agitator as a sparring partner and not a piece of training equipment, will not back off out of "respect". once it's on. it's on. there is no backing down. dogs with true fight drive enjoy the fight and don't mind that it's coming from someone who may have once petted them.

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(2) The dog takes everyone at friendly value and is not as aloof and on guard as one without decoy social time would be. I want my dogs to always be looking for a threat, but be calm and stable. Dogs with decoy social time IMO are never looking for a threat they are looking to play with their friend (decoy).

IMHO total BS. i believe what you are thinking is that a dog that accepts petting from a decoy automatically turns the dog into a big, slobbery, stuffed animal that only seeks to be petted at all times. again, if that's the case, i would question the quality and genetic aptitude for doing work if that is what happens to your dogs (i don't mean to "call out" your dogs. i'm only using "your" in the sense that you said you have seen this happen to dogs. those are the ones i'm talking about). dogs operate in different conditions like we do. when we are in the red, we are actively seeking out a threat. to a dog this would be when a decoy is actively agitating. when we are in the green, we're in our homes, doors locked, watching tv, drinking a beer. for a dog, this would be about the same minus the beer and tv. i don't believe allowing a dog to accept petting from a decoy means the dog will then me more apt to operate in the green. when the dog is relaxing with you and the rest of the handlers, when training is over, i don't want my dog in the red. that dog is far too sharp to be useful for anything but a guard dog. i want my dog in the yellow. it's a familiar place for the dog, so no new environmental issues to be concerned about. i'm around people i know, so i'm comfortable. i want my dog to be comfortable as well. he should still be alert and scanning the environment a bit. i don't mind if anybody pets my dog in this mode.

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but they should be always scoping out potential threats. The only way to do that effectively is to certainly not let your dog get love slobber from the person they are suppose to wage an ivory war on.

again, this sounds more like a sport mentality. sounds like you're training the dog to only ever wage "ivory war" on this small set of decoys. the dog should engage because i tell it to, not because it's familiar with "waging war" on a small group of people time and time again. if i had it my way, in a perfect world, i'd have a different helper EVERY SINGLE training session to avoid this familiarity that you seem to covet.

again, chris, i'm not calling out your dogs, questioning your dogs abilities or anything of that nature. just discussing a philosophical difference. my main point is that i want my dog to engage who i tell him to, regardless of whether or not he has been petted by that person. to that end, i don't want my dog viewing a helper who is not agitating any different than any other person. IMO that is real world rather than trying to instill hate in the dog for a small group of training helpers. i think you're anthropomorphizing a bit that belief.

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again, this sounds more like a sport mentality. sounds like you're training the dog to only ever wage "ivory war" on this small set of decoys. the dog should engage because i tell it to, not because it's familiar with "waging war" on a small group of people time and time again. if i had it my way, in a perfect world, i'd have a different helper EVERY SINGLE training session to avoid this familiarity that you seem to covet.

Ok there is obvious training difference, but I have to say your definatly wrong in your assumption of me working the same helper all the time, familiarity thing. I go out of my way to train in as many different places on as many different competent decoys as possible. I have never owned a dog that had a problem engaging anyone who was different or on or in a different place. I start them young getting them in different enviroments and with different people. Sport Menatility is definatly not me. I find my decoy love to be in the same catagory **sorta** as not letting people pet my dogs. Any dog I'v ever had would engage whoever I said. Your right about when I said I had seen this before and it was dogs that were already on the edge, I gave that as an example, but that example does not apply to me or my dogs I just feel like why go there it's not necessary. Love and affection and everything else comes from me, an outright fight comes from the person who assaults me, or I tell him/her to bite, everyone else is a potential threat. Yes a dog should engage who you tell it to when you tell it to, but again I just don't see any good coming from decoy slobber on a real dog. The most I want my decoy(s) to do for example when working on a young dog and building confidence, is to act like little suzie getting attacked on the way to school. Play hurt as much as possible and let them know they are kicking your but, thats all the love I want my dogs getting from a decoy. No real perp is going to be petting and soothing your dog while they are on the bite. When I want pressure it's a fight, when I want soothing it's the decoy going to the ground acting hurt as much as possible. When I want to reward for a good fight, it's fight, then extreme hurt acting to show them that if they stay in the fight long enough and keep bringing it they win, their reward becomes hurting the decoy. I'm of course talking about when slipping jacket or sleeve is mostly over, then in place of slipping the reward becomes that he/she has hurt the decoy. I see we have different methods, but it's always worked for me and I'v never had a problem training this way. But alot of "sport" trainers train that way, and I feel like it's ok with sport in mind, but not for a PPD/PSD. Looks like we are both set in our beliefs on that.

PS: for the record, I was talking about the decoy taking off the jacket and sitting on the ground and the dog coming up and literally the two playing together rubbing, kisses and lots of petting like they were dog and handler. That is a no go for me, simply no love from the decoy here in no shape or form.
~CHRIS DUHON

i guess another difference here is that you're talking PPD and i'm talking PSD. if i didn't have to do demos and take the dog to schools, let kids pet him, community members pet him, etc, i would be less apt to let anyone other than a family member pet my dog. as it is, i need my dog to be social and that's all i'm talking about here. i'm not talking about it being viewed by the dog as a reward right after bitework like you describe.

i need my dog to have an on/off switch. that isn't so important in a PPD i suppose.