I am thinking of switching my dogs to the raw diet. In the process of doing some reading/research on the topic, I find some differences as to what is the best way. I realize too, that everyone who feeds this diet has an opionion, but I am trying to sort out fact from fiction the best I can. I read Ed Frawley's site a lot, buy his training tapes and dog supplies, and I do respect the input/knowledge he gives in providing great information to help educate dog owners, which I appreciate very much. During the process of research I have come across a lot of negative feedback regarding feeding supplements and vegetables...and that ONLY raw meat is needed to balance out the dog's diet. When I pose the question of possible deficiences...such as iodine, vitamins and minerals that are important to all mammals, I am told that dogs have lived millions of years eating only raw, and they survived...so by adding anything else is just spending wasteful money. I would appreciate any feedback/comments from others who feed the raw diet, so I can make the best decision for my dogs. Thanks. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Nancy, I've been feeding raw for almost 6 years now and have sort transitioned into a very relaxed way of feeding. I started out with Billinghurst, lots of vegies/supplements. I've since then become much less compulsive! I feed what is on sale. I give occasional greens that I buzz in the blender, and vitamin c. Although I'm no expert, my dogs are doing well and look super. It's been my experience that new raw feeders can over-complicate the diet. I also think that some supplements MAY be necessary for some dogs. This board is a super resource. It's my opinion that even a floundering, new raw feeder is providing food that is immeasurably better than kibble. Good luck.

Congrats on making the decision to go raw. Feeding just raw meat is NOT correct. I think what you're referring to is what's called Prey Model, and it's not just meat that is important. If you think about what a wolf would eat in the wild, that's what you'd give your dog (this is the idea, anyway). They need bones, cartilage, meat, intestine, etc., NOT JUST MEAT. I sometimes give mine a whole chiken; this way, he's getting these components in the form and doses that nature intended (calcium/phos ratio). I don't do this every day, and I do supplement with Vitamins C and E, and some others depending on the dog's individual needs. There are countless raw threads on this board. Do a search, and let us know in 3 weeks if you have any questions after you're reading <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />.

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Congrats on making the decision to go raw. Feeding just raw meat is NOT correct. I think what you're referring to is what's called Prey Model, and it's not just meat that is important. If you think about what a wolf would eat in the wild, that's what you'd give your dog (this is the idea, anyway). They need bones, cartilage, meat, intestine, etc.,

This is vital, whether you decide on prey model or b.a.r.f. or something between.......muscle meat alone is disastrous for a dog because they need bones. Muscle meat is high in phosphorous and bones are high in the right kind and balance of calcium; dogs need them together.

Here's a site with a discussion of supplements:
http://www.njboxers.com/faqs.htm#sup

I do use salmon oil and Vitamin E and I see such anti-inflammation benefits that I doubt I could be convinced to stop giving them. (I take them, too.)

But the whole produce-no produce discussion has been covered here about 698 times, and if you put "raw" in the search function and check out the threads, you can decide. (URL above also has details of produce in the diet.)

My own opinion (and many people disagree; many agree, too) is that some produce was and is consumed by wolves and that the dog has evolved eating fallen ripe fruit, berries, and some prey stomach contents (greens, probably) in addition to their main diet of prey carcass.

It will probably never be a question that's answered to everyone's satisfaction. I personally prefer to err on the side of not eliminating from the diet anything the animal may ever have eaten if I hadn't taken 100% control.

So you're doing the right thing: reading!

I'm in agreement on the not-meat-only part with Connie, Jenni and especially Lori's approach. I've been feeding raw for about 7 yrs. and I just don't sweat the details that much anymore. I don't really care what dogs ate in the wild anymore than what my ancestors ate 100 yrs. ago. I've settled primarily on chicken parts that will include a decent amount of easily digestible bones and organ meat. I regularly include a small amount of veggies, probably becuase it makes me feel better. I supplement with fish oil and E because my dog has some unidentified allergies which these supplements seem to keep them under control. Then there's the occasional eggs, yogurt, cottage cheese, fruits and such. My dog is healthy, has great skin and coat, very active, poops regularly and satisfactorly, sleeps well, gets a thumbs up from the vet (who doesn't recommend a raw diet), so that's good enough for me.

I try to keep up with what new stuff is written about the diet or new warnings and then adjust when appropriate. For example, I recently cut out grapes after reading they can be toxic. Next thing you know, I'll have to cut out her morning cafe mocha! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I'd start out simple and adjust as you read and learn more. Making "the best decision" is simply the switch to raw, and the details depend on how particular and specific the owner wants to be. Keep reading this site and the others that are mentioned in past posts and you'll have more than enough information.

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I'm in agreement on the not-meat-only part with Connie, Jenni and especially Lori's approach. I've been feeding raw for about 7 yrs. and I just don't sweat the details that much anymore. I don't really care what dogs ate in the wild anymore than what my ancestors ate 100 yrs. ago. I've settled primarily on chicken parts that will include a decent amount of easily digestible bones and organ meat. I regularly include a small amount of veggies, probably becuase it makes me feel better. I supplement with fish oil and E because my dog has some unidentified allergies which these supplements seem to keep them under control. Then there's the occasional eggs, yogurt, cottage cheese, fruits and such. My dog is healthy, has great skin and coat, very active, poops regularly and satisfactorly, sleeps well, gets a thumbs up from the vet (who doesn't recommend a raw diet), so that's good enough for me.

I try to keep up with what new stuff is written about the diet or new warnings and then adjust when appropriate. For example, I recently cut out grapes after reading they can be toxic. Next thing you know, I'll have to cut out her morning cafe mocha! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I'd start out simple and adjust as you read and learn more. Making "the best decision" is simply the switch to raw, and the details depend on how particular and specific the owner wants to be. Keep reading this site and the others that are mentioned in past posts and you'll have more than enough information.

Well, the above describes what I feed, too. I stick to low-sugar fruits (blueberries, e.g.) and steer way clear of *any* grains.

I wanted to add something that one member of each of my dogs' clubs recently discovered (two different people) when they switched their overweight dogs to raw for allergy reasons.

They both say that their dogs are satisfied with the appropriate amount of food now and don't look pathetically at the empty dish now or wait around hoping and (in one case) begging for more. I mentioned this in passing to my vet, who is not a big raw fan but has said "I can't argue with the results in your dogs" (about their old allergies and their coats and teeth). She wondered if maybe the grain in commercial foods triggered the same blood-sugar ups and downs that causes many humans to crave more when they eat starchy carbs.

Interesting theory, and I plan to look for research on that.

Both my friends' fatties are now losing weight without too much complaint. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

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It's my opinion that even a floundering, new raw feeder is providing food that is immeasurably better than kibble.

And canned pumpkin, even if it is cooked, is magic if you flounder to far afield and the pup gets the runs!

A variety of intellegently selected, wholesome ingredients should outperform a monotonous, processed and then preserved diet. Making a people example, almost anything home-cooked with even minimal thought towards healthy eating versus a TV dinner. And the same TV dinner for every meal at that!

Another thought. The range of what an animal can live on is much broader than what is optimal for it to live on. I think our lucky dogs live, on average, pretty darn close to the optimal zone with most of the approaches I have seen here.

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It's my opinion that even a floundering, new raw feeder is providing food that is immeasurably better than kibble.

Not necessarily true and especially for young puppies. I have been feeding raw for over 15 years. I have raised pregnant bitches, top working dogs, whelped litters etc. Through these years I have learned many things. I do believe that 'today' my dogs get/are fed the 'best' possible diet and all that they need.

Things I have learned.

1) Chicken is not enough. It is a necessary and vital part of a raw diet but this alone WILL cause problems...especially to young puppies.
2) Red meat/organs/fat are essential to a raw diet.
3) VARIETY is the key!!! A variety of meats/organs etc is essential.
4) Veggies ARE important to a raw diet
5) Adding other things to the diet are important

What I add:

Omegas found in different oils. I use salmon, hemp seed, olive oil etc. I will alternate/change and so on
Egg yolk
Vit C
Kelp
Vit/mineral supplements (I us a varity of brands and alternate this with kelp etc.)
honey (raw if possible)
yogurt

Older or active dogs also get some glucosamine, and perhaps other supplements as necessary.

THe "added supplements" that I put in my dogs diet are not done daily but every few days/couple of times a week. I like to alternate with a VARIETY of different vit/minerals out there for dogs to give a 'vast choice/ingrediencts".

My dogs are very active and work outside a lot. The amounts of everything I feed will depend on the dog/age/activity level.

I don't believe that dogs (or humans) can get "everything" they need to have a healthy body from eating 'good fresh foods'. Some foods may be better than others, but we live in a day and age where TONS of chemicals are used on our meat/veggies to help them grow so that they 'look' good, grow faster, and so on. The soil many of our foods are grown in are depleated of the much needed minerals that we once obtained from the produce when it was grown in it.


In my last litter a puppy went to a person who that wanted to feed raw and were somewhat familiar with it. The person proceeded to feed raw to this puppy. When he left he was normal and VERY healthy.

After a couple of weeks, I recieved a frantic phone call that this puppy must have bad hips or something is wrong as it is limping and can barely walk. Did not sound right. She was taking the pup to her vet. An hour later, I got another phone call with the person being a tad embarrassed. The puppy had very torn pads (and some missing areas) on it's feet. In further discussion I found out they had taken him for a LONG walk on a gravel road.

About a month later, I got an email saying that this pup was VERY cow hocked and too angled in the rear and after a professional looked at him, they said they would not train him for SAR. (he was sold as SAR puppy). This made NO sense to me. Puppy is from working lines and has very little angulation in rear. I asked what she was feeding him.

Seems that all the pup was getting was chicken necks/backs, a raw egg once in awhile and a few veggies that were left over from 'baby food'. I told them this was not a balanced raw diet and likley something physically was going on. They returned the pup the next day to the co-breeder.

I have never seen anything like it. Looked like Ricketts to me. Ended up being a different form of rickkets. He was totally down on pasturns in front and on hocks in the rear. He was at least 15-20lb.s OVERWEIGHT. Poor puppy was definately in pain.

Guess due to his foot/pad injury they had kept him in the house and fed him trying to get feet to heal but to no avial.

I did video tape and took pictures. Within 2 days of being on a balanced diet and being outside in the sun, he looked SO much better and NEVER limped again. Within 2 wks, he was back to normal, feet were normal etc. THANKFULLY we got him back in time!!!

At 7 months,x-rays were done on spine, hips/elbows to make sure no long term damage had been done. Everything looked WONDERFUL. Orthapedic surgeon said, had he not known the history of the pup he never would have known something was wrong.

He is now a hearing assistance dog for someone who is deaf.

The above taught me a lot. I think it is likley that an adult dog can be switched to raw and even an unbalanced raw diet without too many negative side effects.

I am more careful with puppies. I don't say this to panic anyone as I *think* common sense should/could prevail and in all likley hood most pups are fed a raw diet correctly suffering no ill effects.

BUT..several things happen now. A book on raw feeding goes to every puppy buyer. I Keep in touch as much as possible and I strongly encourage ANYONE who is going to feed raw to do some research.

It is not hard to do this and/or to find GOOD information in this day and age. There are NUMEROUS books out there, tons of articles and websites galore to help. It just takes a bit of time.

Sorry Shelly, but I believe that your post is liable to scare some people from feeding raw. Supplements, like I said, have their place for some dogs. However, after the expense of a pup, with all the added expenses they incur, some people will be scared away from raw. Many of the people I know who raw feed started out by the seat of their pants so to speak. Yes, they read up on it. But I think its a disservice to people to present raw in an intimidating way. Kibble is poison. period. For a beginner who feeds some necks, a few vegies, and an occasional egg or two, that persons dog is far better off. I think we'd all agree that feeding raw is a "long haul" commitment. My initial post was meant to convey that. Get started. Keep the poor dog off junkfood. Keep reading. And don't feel that you have to invest in tons of vits and supplements. they can come later on as you transition into that way of feeding and develop your own style. I haven't even mentioned green tripe, something I do feed, but only in the past two years....not to open up another can of worms.

As I said, our lucky puppies get pretty close to optimum nutrition; perhaps your a little closer than mine! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />