I have a one year old Male GSD that I have had since Feburary and am at a point in his training where to go further I must get him to out consistantly. I have built his drive for a kong on a rope to the point he will pretty much go to any length to get and keep the kong. He will focus on it to the point I can set it on his nose and move it up and down etc without him jumping. I use the kong as a reward for obediance mixed in with treats and praise. At this point I am thrilled with were he is with his bite work. He is getting to a point where he is unwilling to trade the kong for food or another item. I can't even play with another item with him without struggling to get it back. I have tried flanking him with mixed results, he will rebite the kong as fast as he drops it and he's quick. With any other dog I would tie it off and use an e-collar and put the kong on a line and I may have to do that with him. I am reluctant to use an e-collar at this point because he is easy to put into avoidance with one and that serves no purpose. Even with a no bark collar he will ocassionally continue to bark until the collar corrects him hard enough to put him in avoidance. My thought was to use a bite roll that he isn't so wild about but will still bite and a very low setting on an e-collar and see what happens. If I can get him to out I will throw him a treat and praise the heck out of him if it dosn't work I'll wait a month or two and try it again and repeat until he is ready.

Any ideas would be greatly appreciated!

HI Chris

Forget about the prong or e-collar or flanking your dog.
Especially at a young age. My preference is tugs, but if your dog likes Kongs? Work with that.
The magic word for the day is TRADES VBG
Get another Kong just like the first. Play with the first.
then let it "die" and bring out the second Kong. The Kong that you have is the fun one, the one that the dog has is a
dead hunk of rubber. Tease the dog with the live Kong, move it in quick prey moves, hide it from the dog and make him real curious about what you have. I'd minimize or elimanate
throwing the Kong. Do more tugging, back and forth with the
dog. When the dog drops the first Kong, to get the second
mark it with an OUT/AUS. Before you know it the dog will drop the dead Kong on command to get the second active Kong

I have tried trading him, that didn't work very well for very long. It does the first time in a session but after he has gotten the second item it is difficult to get the first item back. I get bitten about 25% of the time and 50% of the time he is able to drop the second item and bite the first item and I'm right back to where I was before. Tugging is not an issue he will bite with a firm grip and will not let go or mouth the item to a point where I can get it from him even if I take him on a walk. He will eventually drop the item and if I'm quick I can get it from him but thats not the point. All I'm doing there is building drive then walking for 20 minutes to get the item back. I may try a third item that way I will always have one avalable. I could try a tie out and use a second item and food reward. He is a smart little guy once I can get the light to go on that aus means drop it and I get a reward and more play he will be fine. That I can build on! I have done a good job building drive for the prey item, getting him to grip firmly, and getting him to focus on it. He loves to bite and will bite anything you present it's getting it back that is the problem. I have a tendency to be heavy handed and that works with my other dogs. This dog needs a slightly differnt approach and I tend to question what I do with him more.

If you can get him to understand that out means let go and play again then you will have no problem, I assume you have that kong on the rope, if so I would play tug with him and then stop playing and make the kong dead by steping on the rope or pull it between your leg and don't let it move no matter how much he is pulling, command out and of course right now he won't out, just keep it dead, you might have to do that for a long time until he is tired and let it go, as soon as he let it go mark it and start playing again and then repeat the routine. Once the dog understand that out means play again, he will out quick and clean, but you have to make play fun so he thinks that it is alot better than holding a dead toy, so tug and talk alot during playing.
This is how I do it on my dog and he is very good with out, I never ever have to repeat the out.
Good luck.

I had some sucess today with two items and food. I'll just keep at it.

you wrote:

I have tried trading him, that didn't work very well for very long. It does the first time in a session but after he has gotten the second item it is difficult to get the first item back.

>Chris,

>You have to really make the kong you have attractive and
>the one the dog has, dead and boring.
I get bitten about 25% of the time and 50% of the time he is able to drop the second item and bite the first item and I'm right back to where I was before.
>Biting the owner is NEVER acceptable. If he bites you, game
>is over and you put him in the crate or kennel and let him
>sit and think

Tugging is not an issue he will bite with a firm grip and will not let go or mouth the item to a point where I can get it from him even if I take him on a walk. He will eventually drop the item and if I'm quick I can get it from him but thats not the point. All I'm doing there is building drive then walking for 20 minutes to get the item back. I may try a third item that way I will always have one avalable. I could try a tie out and use a second item and food reward. He is a smart little guy once I can get the light to go on that aus means drop it and I get a reward and more play he will be fine. That I can build on! I have done a good job building drive for the prey item, getting him to grip firmly, and getting him to focus on it. He loves to bite and will bite anything you present it's getting it back that is the problem. I have a tendency to be heavy handed and that works with my other dogs. This dog needs a slightly differnt approach and I tend to question what I do with him more.

>I've never seen you work your dog, BUT :-) building drive
>without control, isn't much good? You don't need a third
>item or food if the dog is attracted to the Kong. You just
>trade back and forth with the two kongs. The main thing is
>to be patient.

Just for clerifiction he dosn't bite me in an agressive way. He will drop the kong in his mouth and go for the next item and get a hand. Like I said he's smart and has figured out once an item is on the ground if I move to it, I'm planning to pick it up and move it so as soon as I bend over he follows my hand drops the item in his mouth and go's for the one I'm picking up. I can live with a few niped hands. That is going to happen with any dog.

Food worked today I just put a bait bag on my back and told him to aus then gave him the treat and praised him. I was able to get one item or the other each time and keep going. This I can live with and build on.