OMG! Opinions on why would help me in the future. Gunnar is a 13 month old intact male (American/German Showlines). He is a velcro dog who is with me nearly 24/7. I work from home and have been his world from 8 weeks of age. No other animals in family, 2 teens, 1 10 year old. Although they all will play with him and do some of the chores, i.e. walk him, the vast majority of his day is spent with me.

He's rec'd private weekly training from 8 weeks and is now receiving private group training. I use a crate every day and the e-collar sometimes. His obedience is fabulous under no to low distractions and quickly becomes mediocre under big distractions (other dogs).

Our group lesson involves about 5 or 6 other dogs who are not beginners but whose owners are also not very serious <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />. Therefore, a lot of sit/stay and down/stay seems to occur as a test for the dogs. My dog is one of the better ones but never passes the test if he's made to wait too long or if all the other dogs get up and run, eventually he will too. Each time I go to him, pop him with the prong collar and walk back to my spot, expecting him to do the required task.

Event: During this type of scenario two weeks ago, he got up so I walked over to pop him again and he growled and snarled big time!! Well, it was in this moment I learned the hanging-your-dog thing may work for people like Ed Frawley and, well, anyone who weighs more than the dog but not for me!! What I did was try to hang him they way I read Ed describes. OMG!! All that did was bring his snarling pearly whites to my face!! So for women of smaller stature and/or lesser strength, I say, don't try this at home kids <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> !!

Seeing this was not working, I basically became frantic and yelled to the trainer, "What do I do"? She came over and pretty much slammed him to the ground and slapped him in the face twice. He immediately stopped.

Now, last week I heard a very low growl come out of him during the same group type lesson. I immediately slapped him in the mouth. He didn't do it again.

What should I have done and what should I do in the future if he does it again <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> ???

So when he's 13 months old, he's testing you and seeing how far he can push you. Keep as calm as you can (freaking out or panicking, even though they are valid human emotions in a situation like this, are not something that good dog pack leaders do). Slamming him on the ground and slapping him on the face is a good way for him to seriously bite you as I can pretty much guarantee he'll see it coming next time. An alpha roll like what your trainer did should not be attempted without a muzzle on, especially with a large powerful dog. If he's being handler aggressive after (or before, if he can see it is coming) correction, a dominant dog collar would probably work better as it seems the prong is over stimulating him. Even lifting him so his paws are just a few inches about the ground will work as though I'm strong for a girl <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> I may or may not be able to "hang" a 90+ lbs dog. How long is the line you are using for the down stay? You could possibly switch to a longer line (like a 20 foot) so you don't have to come right up next to him to give the correction. You might have to take a step back in training and make sure he is just about 100% solid without distractions before adding in too many more as other dogs are a huge distraction. And go back to giving him a BIG reward when he does what you want so there is a very clear set on consequences in his mind.

Can you work him under increasing distractions outside the class? It sounds like you're making the jump from easy-as-pie to incredibly difficult with no middle ground.

Are you following Ed's article on groundwork? Other things that people have tried that work well for instilling the idea that you are alpha over the dog include ignoring the dog completely when coming into the house for about five minutes or more and eating with the dog watching you before you put the food bowl down, even if it's just a cracker.

If you feel you don't have the strength to adequately handle the dog, I suggest making a good muzzle part of his life and then training with it until the issue is resolved. Don't just use it for training, use it on walks, when going to fun places, when doing fun things, that way he doesn't have a negative association to it.

Judy, letting ANYONE slap your dog in the face is nuts. I have access to a few execellent trainers and not one ever told me to hit my dog, it doesn't make any sense. There's good trainers out there, try and find one. If you don't mind driving to CT, you're more than welcome to train with our new group, Mike Kitchen is a good decoy and trainer and knows enough not to slap a dog, tell your trainer she's lucky your dog has the temperament that it does, some dogs would've made her pay dearly for the slap

1) Prong collars don't work for "hanging" -- If that truly becomes necessary, you should get a Leerburg dominant dog collar (make absolutely SURE it's just barely long enough to fit snuggly right behind his ears & jaw, or it will be useless!) and work him in muzzle...

2) Get Ed's DVD on dealing with dominance & aggression NOW:
http://www.leerburg.com/301.htm
It will help you determine what TYPE of aggro this is &
will help you decide how BEST to handle it...

These are just my opinions as a PET owner, but:

A. I would never allow that trainer NEAR your dog again,
and I would NOT copy her handling techniques on him...

B. My gut feeling, for what it's worth, is that he may be a soft dog who's afraid of pain, and he might be confused & uncomfortable because he's being pushed too fast & corrected more harshly than his drive level & temperament type will tolerate...

C. If I were you, I'd email Ed or Cindy directly with your concerns, because you could easily make your poor dog HATE you if you terrorize him -- and he'll end up biting you out of FEAR, if you cross his flight-or-fight threshold...

Judy, I would put his formal training on HOLD before your relationship is ruined -- Then I'd get an expert who's not a NAZI to evaluate his drive & temperament, so you can later resume a training regimen that WORKS for both you & your dog (!)

Maren, there is no leash on any of the dogs in class. He has always responded well with treats while under no to low distraction level. With high distraction level (it's always dogs), he'll spit the treat out. He's completely not interested in it. All he wants is to get to the dog. And these are dogs he sees EVERY week. It's not like they're new and he's just curious. He's really a pain in the ass with other dogs. He's always been. I see an improvement over time but it is still a problem.

Diana, I never thought of that. You may have hit the nail on the head with your "easy-as-pie to incredibly difficult description". I was under the assumption that by 13 months old, he should be able to handle distractions <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />. Am I wrong to think this?

Al, you're a peach but I also need what to do as well as what not to do. Please elaborate on your answer by way of examples. How should I have reacted?

Candi, you are completely correct in that he is a soft dog. When he was a puppy I used to call him my Drama Queen.

Regarding the trainer: After the first snarling episode in class, I returned the next week with treats and told the trainer that, since he responds so well to treats while training everywhere else, I'd like to try to reward his behavior here with treats instead of punishing the bad, i.e., tug on prong. She said she thinks that's a bad idea to get him hooked on treats in that he may not perform with them later on. Although I quietly debated the point in the middle of class, I relented and put the treats away.

After about 15 minutes, I decided on my own to introduce the treats during class. He seemed to respond a little better with this but it was hard to tell. What was a clear and significant improvement though was as soon as the treats were introduced, he became very attentive to me and was watching my face for his next command instead of watching the other dogs.

So that I don't sound like I'm contradicting myself, the normal treats he loves during training with me alone, he'll eat but with other dogs around he won't. These, he'll spit out. BUT this day I brought beef liver I cooked on the grill - he loves this! That was when he really started paying attention to me! In class, without treats, he'll try to do the things asked but you can tell he's always multi-tasking! He'll listen but you know he really wants to get to the dog sitting next to him.

Any comments on the treats portion of the class?

Should I return to private lessons and, if so, for how long would you guys guesstimate would be appropriate?

Thanks so much for your help. I know I have a really wonderful dog and am working so hard at not messing up. This snarling event is quite upsetting <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />. Sorry for the long post <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> .

 Quote:

Judy, letting ANYONE slap your dog in the face is nuts. I have access to a few execellent trainers and not one ever told me to hit my dog, it doesn't make any sense. There's good trainers out there, try and find one. If you don't mind driving to CT, you're more than welcome to train with our new group, Mike Kitchen is a good decoy and trainer and knows enough not to slap a dog, tell your trainer she's lucky your dog has the temperament that it does, some dogs would've made her pay dearly for the slap

Man. I'm thinking I would cold-cock a trainer that ever did that w/o permission on my pup. Not that I'd give them permission. You have a much cooler head than me, Judy.

My inexperienced, n00b take on this situation is that the class environment you describe is too much stress for your dog. I'd be nervous and sharp as well if I thought there was an off chance somebody was going to pick me up and slap me around a little bit for wanting to play with other dogs. If you must stay in that class environment...and again, no offense, but I would not come near that instructor again if it were me...I'd at the least exercise the dog hard before class to run out energy a bit. Just my two cents.

 Quote:

......... Get Ed's DVD on dealing with dominance & aggression NOW:
http://www.leerburg.com/301.htm
It will help you determine what TYPE of aggro this is &
will help you decide how BEST to handle it.........

And I urge you to get the Basic Obedience DVD at the same time, if for no other reason that to show you clearly everything that trainer is/was doing wrong.

It's a solid and basic addition to your tools, IMO.

Woody, what a good idea about exercising beforehand! Yeesh why can't I think of these things myself <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> ?

In answer to your question, no I don't have to take him to that class. The trainer holds many classes (private and group) but from the sounds of everyone's post, I shouldn't use her at all!?!

You are all saying what she (and I) did was wrong but what should we have done at that precise moment??? Put him in the car?? Tie him to a tree and ignore him and the momentary bad behavior?? HELP! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

 Quote:

In answer to your question, no I don't have to take him to that class. The trainer holds many classes (private and group) but from the sounds of everyone's post, I shouldn't use her at all!?!

If the environment you describe is accurate (that this is not a treat-based class and your instructor is empowered enough by the trainees to physically hurt their dogs for disobedience), my guess is not many people here would advise going back there. I would have a problem watching anybody doing that to any dog, let alone my own. I wasn't there but what you describe, if it is accurate, is a very bad place to get your dog excited about anything. JMO.

 Quote:

You are all saying what she (and I) did was wrong but what should we have done at that precise moment??? Put him in the car?? Tie him to a tree and ignore him and the momentary bad behavior?? HELP! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

It doesn't sound like your dog truly knows the command well enough to comply to it. I'd start over in a quiet, positive environment with motivational training. Again, JMO. I think all that was appropriate at that precise moment was realizing that your dog was not ready for distance/distraction proofing. Others would probably advocate a correction here but I certainly wouldn't, not in the environment you describe. I'd just get the dog out of the environment and give him a chance to start over.

By the way, I don't think this sounds like a dominance/aggression thing. I think the dog is scared. I'd start with the Basic Ob video. And let one of the nice, laid back, low-drive Mals on this board sub for your dog at the next class. To Al's point, I think your instructor might benefit from trying to bully around something that could alpha roll HIM. I'd like the video, should that happen.