Hello Everyone,

I recently joined the forum and found tons of great information. I need some help though from anyone willing to give me their 2 cents. All advice GREATLY appreciated.

I recently adopted (2) 10mos old litter mates (Labs). Up until now I considered myself an EXPERIENCED dog handler, having successfully trained 3 other labs down to the point of not having to repeat any commands and being able to break one dog out of a command while having the others continue with their command. Well like I said before I "THOUGHT" I was an experienced handler until now.

They are a male and a female 10 mos. old. It is very obvious that the female ran the show in their previous home. From what I know they were just backyard dogs, never socialized, and NOT TRAINED what so ever. The previous owner was going to dump them at the pound because she simply said "I have no time for them" which I think is completely irresponsible on her part... The female seems to be coming along just fine and is responding very well to training and will be a great dog in no time. She plays very well when I allow play time with the other dogs and is curious about everything.

The male on the other hand, has become a BIG challenge for me. He is very fearful and very paranoid of his sorroundings... everytime I work with him different things will trigger a "COMPLETE SHUTDOWN" at which point I have to stop working with him. I know that he has a fear of MOST MEN especially older men with facial hair which leads me to believe there may have been some possible abuse. I have tried the methods here on the Leerburg website as far as the different phases of training, but with this dog I just cant seem to move forward. When im training with him I cant get him to focus on me. He is constantly and I mean CONSTANTLY looking everywhere frightened as if making sure that no one is going to hurt him sometimes the slightest noise (a train, a car, or even just a person walking by) will trigger his fright/paranoia and he will want to run and hide. I have tried verbally correcting him as well as correcting him with equipment so that he understands that this behavior is UNACCEPTABLE but it seems to make him even MORE skiddish. I dont know how to work with him anymore.

I would hate to give up on him if there is something else that I can do for him. I have four other dogs which include HIS littermate the female, and I can't see myself constantly tippy towing around him and ALL his fears.

I am fearing that I may have to put him down because I can't just fine him a new home being so fearful of everything. He has a great temperment (when he is not afraid), very loving and gentle, will play well with the other dogs. Although too often doesnt really know what he is doing ( as far as why he is running with the other dogs... for example playing fetch, he runs with them but he doesnt know why he is doing it).He is very submissive and I know that the fear is not just him trying to challenge me as his pack leader. I know that a lot of his problem is LACK of socialization in his early crucial puppy learning months, but is too late?

He is now 10 mos old and I dont want to declare him a lost cause just yet. Can anyone help? Does anyone have any suggestions on how to attack this problem? I am open to ANY and ALL suggestions.

Thank you in advance to everyone for helping.

Hilario

If it's genetically caused bad nerves, there may be nothing you can do but if it's due primarily to the lack of proper socialization, he can be helped but it will take time and patience.

First, separate these litter mates if you haven't done so already. They need to bond with you as much and hopefully more than they already are to each other.

For now, do formal training sessions with the female only. For the male, tether him to you and let him just be with you as you go about your business. Basically ignore any fearful behavior but, quietly praise any calm behavior on his part.

Hold off on formal training but use casual training opportunities. For example, when you see him going into a sit (or other wanted behavior)just as he does the behavior, quietly give the associated command and praise him.

A very basic NILIF program might also be of value with these dogs. Until they have some basic obedience commands down you'd probably have to assist them in obeying a command before they get get something but that's ok. And it could help both dogs in bonding to you and help to both teach the female that you and not she are in charge and boost the male's confidence.

By the way, his fear of men with facial hair is more likely to be due to a lack of socialization as a young puppy than to abuse.

Hi
Sounds to me like he just hasn't had the exposure that *he* needed, and combined with a not so confident personality, he is having a hard time. Remember, admittedly, nothing was done with them. What I would do is give him more time to settle in. Let him watch you interact with the other dogs, and have people over, and ignore him. Oh, btw, the beard thing may not be abuse, he may just not have seen it before.
He sounds like he is repairable; he may not be 100% normal, but he could adjust well in your home. Some things you can try to reduce his fears are an anxiety wrap (basically a tight t-shirt around his mid line). Find a game/hobby he *really* likes and do this- and intersperse some training behaviours into the games. Basically bring out whatever drive he has, and get him to focus on that instead of the big scary world. Since he is so worried, don't ask more of him than you know he can handle- and always make game out of it. I have a fearful dog, and have found what makes her go nuts, her job- and she has benefitted immensely.
Julie

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everytime I work with him different things will trigger a "COMPLETE SHUTDOWN" at which point I have to stop working with him. I know that he has a fear of MOST MEN especially older men with facial hair which leads me to believe there may have been some possible abuse. I have tried the methods here on the Leerburg website as far as the different phases of training, but with this dog I just cant seem to move forward. When im training with him I cant get him to focus on me. He is constantly and I mean CONSTANTLY looking everywhere frightened as if making sure that no one is going to hurt him sometimes the slightest noise (a train, a car, or even just a person walking by) will trigger his fright/paranoia and he will want to run and hide. I have tried verbally correcting him as well as correcting him with equipment so that he understands that this behavior is UNACCEPTABLE but it seems to make him even MORE skiddish.

Sounds like he needs to bond with you before you start any serious training with him. Reward good behavior, be a treat machine whenever he does any little good thing. I suggest you not correct him constantly, especially for being fearful, since you say it only makes him worse. It's not a matter of putting the dog down, it's a matter of patience with him and taking your time so he can adjust to you and your home. If he's constantly around your other dogs, you may want to give him his space for a while, until he settles. Does he have a crate? Does he get any time with you alone, without all the distractions? The distractions are distracting him and not allowing him to settle down. Work him only in your yard, rather play with him, give him something to chase, praise, praise. You will have to spend more time with him, are you committed to doing that. If you want to work with him, just do the sit command and nothing else for a while, with no pressure. Treat him like he's a young 9 wk old pup who hasn't had any training. He doesn't need tons of pressure of learning new commands, being distracted, being constantly around all the other dogs, being taken away from your property, etc. He needs to know he's safe, and this may take a while. I'm sure he's sensing your displeasure with him, and so he's not secure, and it's only making the matter worse. Mercy on the pup.

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First, separate these litter mates if you haven't done so already. They need to bond with you as much and hopefully more than they already are to each other.

For now, do formal training sessions with the female only. For the male, tether him to you and let him just be with you as you go about your business. Basically ignore any fearful behavior but, quietly praise any calm behavior on his part.

Hold off on formal training but use casual training opportunities. For example, when you see him going into a sit (or other wanted behavior)just as he does the behavior, quietly give the associated command and praise him.

this is EXACTLY right. your first job is to create a bond and give the dog confidence that he can trust you, that you are in charge of all danger. ignore his fearful behavior. reward him when he is calm and confident. forget corrections for now.

tethering him to you during your waking hours for a week would be a good beginning.

this is going to take time, but if you show him that you are his confident protector, he will start to take his cues from you and become more confident.

Hi Elaine,

At the risk of sounding ignorant, what does "NILIF" program mean? Also thank you for bringing up the older men facial hair thing... it seems like such COMMON sense now that you and the other people that have posted mention it. I have been so focused on trying to think of ways to try and help him that sometimes the obvious (not having any socialization) just slips my mind.

You said you just recently adopted them, how long have you had them exactly?
I agree with everyone. Bonding with this guy right now is the most important thing. One on One time away from his littermate and just you and him is critical. Everything should be positive for him right now. And be very very careful about corrections with this dog. I am not talking now because I agree that correcting him at this point is no good. But even in the future, if he shuts down easily like you say he may be a dog that will never ever be able to stand a physical correction at any level. If a dog is fearful correcting him is not, in my opinion, the right thing to do as its just going to confuse the little guy. He's frightened as it is, and now he's frightened of getting a correction as well, i'ld shut down too. Keep him tethered to you and keep him close to you. Take him with you when you are doing training sessions with the other dog, but just let him observe and take things in.
Its not too late though, don't give up on him. Make everything in his life right now positive, if he shows fear do nothing, don't comfort him, don't try to distract him, don't correct him..nothing...just ignore it. He will soon learn about things and begin to understand that if you, his pack leader, aren't concerned about it, he shouldn't be either.
Just give him some time to get used to everything, and bond bond bond with him! You'll get back what you put out tenfold <img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I know you asked someone else what NILF means, so i'll chime in on that one.
NILF stands for Nothing In Life is Free. Meaning the dog does not receive anything unless he works for it. He needs to sit before he gets any treat, wants to go outside, sit. Wants a toy...sit...wants a scratch...sit...dinner time..sit first then feed. The point is that he has to do something you want him to do first before he gets what he wants. If you google the word NILF there is a tonne of information on it. Its a nice positive way to enforce you are pack leader.

HI Sandy,

Yes, I am totally commited to try and rehabilitate him to be as normal as he could possibly be. I do have a crate and do spend one on one time with him... but the thing is that the one on one time is mostly affection time of just walking with me or me petting him after he sits for me or when I ask him to follow me or sometting like that the praise I dont tend to give until after he does something for me first. Am I going about this all wrong should the personal time be just that, "personal time" with no work needed to get attention? Also as far as the crate goes I do have one for him which he does like and does use when he is scared he does use it exactly how it is described to be "a safe place" however should I separate his crate out from everyone else (away from where the other dogs are)? One more thing as far as drive goes I have not seen much in him at best and I am not being sarcastic...he will maybe "look" at a toy but rarely goes to chase it or take it from me. Do you think the "building drive" video would help? Thanks again for all your advise and suggestions.

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should the personal time be just that, "personal time" with no work needed to get attention?

actually, you can totally ignore him. his job in the situation is to go to sleep and just relax. he's tethered to you. when you leave the room, he leaves the room. when you go to the bathroom, he goes in there with you. when he wants to go somewhere, he can't unless you take him.

this means that you are in charge of every decision. he does not get to make any decisions, not even about where he will lie down or what room he will be in.

you don't have to be interacting with him at all. you can just ignore him. his job is to just chill and let you decide where he is going and when.

the idea isn't that you are paying him attention. the idea is that he is glued to your hip and begins to not be able to imagine making any decisions for himself, because you are totally in charge of his life. this will help him relax.

Hi Wendy,

Thanks for the the advise. In response to your question: I have had them now for about a 4-5 weeks. I have a question though re: training the female and having the male just observing. If I do that the female tends to not pay attention anymore would this be counter productive to her since I usually start her training with no distractions (which he would be for her)? Do you think that maybe I should just practive with my other already trained dogs and let the ma;e pbserve them instead or do you still think its better that he watch his sister be trained and let him see that everything is okay? Thanks again for sharing your knowledge with me.