Hi everyone,
I have a few questions for those of you who follow Ed's methods of correction-based e-collar training. From what I understand, based on the E-collar video and the articles on correcting aggression, I understand that the timing must be when the dog first notices another dog.
1) In timing that correction, must one wait until the dog shows a sign of aggression, or does one administer the correction for only looking at the dog? I would think looking is acceptable, but hackling, staring or starting to get worked up would be the point to give the correction. So at what point do you give the correction, before or immediately after any reaction from the dog?
2) How do you determine what level to use for aggression? On the video and on Ed's article for Theories of Aggression in Dog Training, he says: "if a remote trainer is used the dog is stimulated at the high level. This is a level that causes pain." My question is how to find that level? Is is the first level where the dog feels pain, or is it the highEST level? What if the dog that your dog spies starts coming toward your dog, thus increasing the distraction?
3) Do you preceed first with the NO command or do you simply administer the correction without any commands?
4) When administering the correction, is it better to use a nick, or to use a continuous until the dog stops the behavior?
5) Do you praise the dog after the correction once he has stopped the display?

A detailed step-by-step explanation would be the most helpful, but if anyone could answer each of my questions seperately I think I will have a good idea on the procedure on how this is supposed to be done. Thank you for your help.
Lauren

Lauren
(1)If your dog has a history of dog aggression I would use a low intensity correction when your dog "ALERTED" to the strange dog. Try walking briskly with your dog towards the distraction (called casting) the dog at a distance. As your dog alerts to the dog he will lose sight of you and will usually continue towards the dog, it is here where you must quietly slow your pace, allowing your dog to drift out of the heel. I usually command "NO" just as I start tapping and releasing the button until I achieve the desired effect, which is that your dog puts his ears back. Be quick to reassure your dog for making the correct choice of moving back towards you and back to a heel position as you lead him safely away from this situation.
(2) Do not use too high of an intensity, but enough to stop your dog. The main ingredient besides the E-collar is to create the distance between you and your dog. At the early stages you are in fact correcting this break in attention. Also if your dog is close to your side when you do correct, you do not want your dog to transfer its aggression towards you and/or you do not want your dog to; leave the heel because it is uncomfortable there, or to worry away from you.
(3)Ed will tell you that I am 100% wrong in most cases, however I would suggest, especially since you seem uncertain and because this is an aggression issue, that you hire someone privately to help you for at least two sessions or until your confidence builds.
Good luck,
Scott

I am in general agreement with Scott. I do not correct for staring, but say "leave it" to let the dog know she is to ignor the other dog. I used a low power stim to train my dog to recall, then to recall under distraction. I also used t to reinforce a heel and sit. So, when I see a dog, I call her to me, and generally, no stim is needed. i would try and avoid any situations where you are very near other dogs but if a dog approaches, have your dog follow you at heel in another direction. Once it is acclimated to this, and understands the stim, you can expect it to stay quiet when another dog passes. My dog will now stay relaxed around almost all dogs, but if I see defensive or aggressive posturing, I call her immediately, and stim (low level) if needed. I do not use a high stim. I use a continuous stim, lower level stim. I do go higher if ignored, whether the dog is walking towards another dog, or chasing game. I praise for a recall.

Scott,

Did you mean to write "walk briskly toward the distraction"?

It seems to me that if you do this the dog will load up entirely too fast and the stim you have set will be ignored. Approaching another dog in a face to face manner with a dog aggressive animal doesn't seem quite right. When you finally get a stim the dog respects, and he changes his focus, he will get entirely too much at that time which can cause problems.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

Howard

I'll give this one a shot. But first let me say that in my own experience of working dog aggressive dogs with an e collar, it is tremendously helpful, in fact required, that the dog aggressive dog have one command inparticular, that he will do when in drive and excited. For some dogs its the sit. For others its the down, but most helpful is the heel (so you can keep walking). You will figure it out by using some smaller distraction like a squirrel or a cat. Also, the MAJORITY of the dog aggression cases I work with can be cured by helping the owner become dominant to the dog. IOW, the dog isn't really dog aggressive when left with other dogs, but it doesn't know how to behave on a leash and acts nuts when another dog is in sight. The dog is dominant to the owner. For these dogs, I have the owner do lots of dominance building and obedience. A dog should not pull out of heel when another dog comes by if they know their place in the pack. If your dog isn't walking a step behind you on the leash (in other words, the dog is walking YOU), you probably aren't ready to confront other dogs wiht the e collar. A dominant dog aggressive dog will not take well to corrections from an owner he considers to be subordinate!!!
Now to your questions:

1) In timing that correction, must one wait until the dog shows a sign of aggression, or does one administer the correction for only looking at the dog?
** I administer the correction if the dog simply LOOKS at the other dog. For a dog aggressive dog, you want to create AVOIDANCE, which means when he looks at the other dog, he should feel he wants to look away.

I would think looking is acceptable, but hackling, staring or starting to get worked up would be the point to give the correction.
** Looking is not acceptable, because it is the looking that puts him in drive. You want him to LOOK AWAY when he sees another dog.

So at what point do you give the correction, before or immediately after any reaction from the dog?
**As soon as he spots the other dog and tenses up. I correct and redirect to his favorite command. You have to start at a distance. I enjoy doing this with the neighborhood barking dog that is tied out to a tree. Start from across the street and work your way up to the curb. When you can get it to work, its amazing to see a dog who before would kill and pull to walk submissively in heel 1 foot from a barking maniac dog tied up.

2) How do you determine what level to use for aggression? On the video and on Ed's article for Theories of Aggression in Dog Training, he says: "if a remote trainer is used the dog is stimulated at the high level. This is a level that causes pain." My question is how to find that level? Is is the first level where the dog feels pain, or is it the highEST level?
**This is a great question, but to be honest, I would have to say its the HIGHEST level to create avoidance. Listen, when your dog aggressive dog goes into drive, it may take the highest level to penetrate his drive and get his attention. He absolutely should yelp and even jump if you did it right.


What if the dog that your dog spies starts coming toward your dog, thus increasing the distraction?

****(***********This should never ever happen because you MUST do this training in a very controlled environment.

3) Do you preceed first with the NO command or do you simply administer the correction without any commands?
****I use NO with the stim then redirect to a command. Praise once the dog is focused on you, not the other dog.

4) When administering the correction, is it better to use a nick, or to use a continuous until the dog stops the behavior?
**This will depend on the dog and the extent of the aggression and level of drive.

5) Do you praise the dog after the correction once he has stopped the display?
**No, I only praise after the dog has refocused on another command.

A detailed step-by-step explanation would be the most helpful, but if anyone could answer each of my questions seperately I think I will have a good idea on the procedure on how this is supposed to be done. Thank you for your help.

Frankly Lauren, if you have a dog aggressive dog that requires e collar correction you should seriously consider hiring a professional so that you don't get hurt. In the meantime, you should work on your dominance building with this dog so you can take him out for a leash walk with out worrying about other dogs.
But laying it out step by step (which ED does very well on his video) would be like this.
Find your nearest dog that is confined behind a fence or is tied up.
Start at a very far distance and walk your dog past. It should be the distance that is far enough that your dog looks interested, but is not freaking out all teeth bared.
Walk past at this distance. If your dog breaks the heeling position to lunge, say NO, stim ( I also use the prong collar in conjuction) and correct, and repease HEEL. Dog should go back into heel. Keep walking for 30 feet or until you notice the dog goes out of drive. Turn around and repeat. The ideal response is at that distance for the dog to be LOOKING AT YOU THE ENTIRE TIME HE PASSED THE CONFINED DOG. Once you have this, get a little closer and repeat. As you get closer, if you are physically unable to handle your dog, I would use a muzzle for your and the dogs safety.

Good luck.

Michelle

What a helpful post, Michelle, thanks for taking the time to provide such great detail <:-)

Hi Michele!
Thank you SO much for the detailed response. Its exactly what i was looking for. Curious, have you personally done this with a dog aggressive dog? (sounds like you have, but just curious) I would also be curious to hear what Ed has to say regarding the description you gave. It makes sense to me!

You also said i should work on obedience and use a professional. I do work daily with obedience with my dogs. This dog in particular is very good at obedience, that is until we see that other dog. as for me getting hurt, i have been hurt by her when i stepped in to break up a full blown fight she was in. however, unless she was in a dog fight, i have no concerns with her ever biting me. additionally, i dont know of any qualified trainers in my area, certainly none of which advocate or have any experience with an ecollar for aggression. thus the questions on here. Any other suggestions?

Also ive also heard it argued that a high level stim for aggression will indeed stop the behavior at the moment, but will not stop the negative associations towards other dogs. and that in fact dogs that have been stimmed at high levels are likely to snap and REEEALLY attack another dog, if given the chance. Id like to avoid this as much as possible. What are your thoughts on that theory? Thanks!
lauren

I used a marker word (Leave It!) and HIGH e-stim avoidance/escape training on my Akita for dog-aggro, and I believe the dynamic is:

She knew the stim came from ME (not from the other dog) so my girl knows I don't allow her to entertain thoughts of attacking another K9 -- It's a pack or rank-drive issue then (don't piss off your alpha-leader!) but it doesn't change her natural inclination, so IF she were ever left to her own devices without me being there, God help any dog who wouldn't submit to her dominance...

Curious, have you personally done this with a dog aggressive dog? (sounds like you have, but just curious) I would also be curious to hear what Ed has to say regarding the description you gave. It makes sense to me!
***Yes, I have done this many times with dog aggressive pits, akitas, rotties, and even maltese!!! lol. This technique works on every breed.

You also said i should work on obedience and use a professional. I do work daily with obedience with my dogs.
**Good!

This dog in particular is very good at obedience, that is until we see that other dog.
***Ok, so in my professional opinion, then, the dog is not "very good at obedience". He may be obedient to you in controlled situations with no distratctions, but once you add distractions, your dog doesn't respect you, he takes matters into his own hands. You have to start adding strong distractions, other animals, people, loud noises, running, balls, sticks, cement trucks... An obedient dog, imo, will be obedient in all situations, not when he or she chooses to mind. KWIM? If you are not proofing your dog, then you aren't really completing his training properly. Again, here a professional can help you introduce distractions and teach you how to refocus your dog when he goes into drive.


as for me getting hurt, i have been hurt by her when i stepped in to break up a full blown fight she was in. however, unless she was in a dog fight, i have no concerns with her ever biting me.
*** Thats fine for you if you want to take that risk, but you should be worried about misdirected aggression towards others, and the other dog especially during this training, therefore, a muzzle is a great idea until you see a submissive reaction from your dog around other dogs. Like the e collar, a muzzle is a fine tool to use when working aggressive dogs.


additionally, i dont know of any qualified trainers in my area, certainly none of which advocate or have any experience with an ecollar for aggression. thus the questions on here. Any other suggestions?
** Yes, get out there and find a good trainer,. You might have to drive an hour, but you can find them. Call your local police dept to see where the nearest K9 unit is and see who works them.


Also ive also heard it argued that a high level stim for aggression will indeed stop the behavior at the moment, but will not stop the negative associations towards other dogs. and that in fact dogs that have been stimmed at high levels are likely to snap and REEEALLY attack another dog, if given the chance. Id like to avoid this as much as possible. What are your thoughts on that theory? Thanks!
*** If you follow the avoidance training step by step, at a distance and gradually building the drive and having the dog refocusing on you, this will not happen because of the reason Candi stated above. The dog will know you are giving the stim, not the other dog. I have never had it happen and I have been using e collars since 1999. I have used it on very nasty dominant dog aggressive dogs with out a problem (but in some cases, with a muzzle!!!).
Good luck,
Michelle

Michelle, thanks for the back-up <:-) It works great with my one dog-aggro spay from just a single e-stim training session (Akitas have especially excellent memories, IMHO) -- But your experience with MANY dogs over a 7 year period really proves my point !