OK - I'm involved in a raw feeding discussion where I have been deemed "radical" and where I have been indirectly accused of spreading Salmonela (through feces) by my raw fed dogs.

I need some RawDiva Assistance!!! This was quoted from a vet in Canada:

BEGIN QUOTE:
You may find this interesting, from Canadian Veterinary Journal:

Preliminary assessment of the risk of Salmonella infection in dogs fed raw chicken diets
Can Vet J. June 2002;43(6):441-2.
Daniel J Joffe, Daniel P Schlesinger
Landing Animal Clinic, C155-1600, 90th Avenue SW, Calgary, Alberta T2V 5A8.
Abstract
This preliminary study assessed the presence of Salmonella spp. in a bones and raw food (BARF) diet and in the stools of dogs consuming it. Salmonella was isolated from 80% of the BARF diet samples (P < 0.001) and from 30% of the stool samples from dogs fed the diet (P = 0.105). Dogs fed raw chicken may therefore be a source of environmental contamination.
END QUOTE

I haven't been called a "radical" since college, so I guess I'm a bit flattered by that. But... I would love some help refuting this if possible!

Thanks,
Beth

 Quote:

OK - I'm involved in a raw feeding discussion where I have been deemed "radical" and where I have been indirectly accused of spreading Salmonela (through feces) by my raw fed dogs.

I need some RawDiva Assistance!!! This was quoted from a vet in Canada:

BEGIN QUOTE:
You may find this interesting, from Canadian Veterinary Journal:

Preliminary assessment of the risk of Salmonella infection in dogs fed raw chicken diets
Can Vet J. June 2002;43(6):441-2.
Daniel J Joffe, Daniel P Schlesinger
Landing Animal Clinic, C155-1600, 90th Avenue SW, Calgary, Alberta T2V 5A8.
Abstract
This preliminary study assessed the presence of Salmonella spp. in a bones and raw food (BARF) diet and in the stools of dogs consuming it. Salmonella was isolated from 80% of the BARF diet samples (P < 0.001) and from 30% of the stool samples from dogs fed the diet (P = 0.105). Dogs fed raw chicken may therefore be a source of environmental contamination.
END QUOTE

I haven't been called a "radical" since college, so I guess I'm a bit flattered by that. But... I would love some help refuting this if possible!

Thanks,
Beth

Refuting it?

They are saying that the poop of raw-fed dogs might be a source of salmonella.

So might the trash of anyone who buys raw meat for family cooking.

If these people are planning to eat either one, then yes, they could be in trouble for sure. <img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" />


Raw produce, raw meat, and the poop containing either one are all potential (not definite, of course -- but potential) sources of salmonella if ingested.

Personally, I pick up and trash the poop instead. <img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Any chance you have a link to something that suggests human garbage as a more significant problem than dog poop in this regard? I'm guessing some sort of evidence is out there - just need help finding it.

LOL for your entertainment, one of the "radical" things I did in this other discussion was criticize, in a very broad sense, the vet community for buying into the Science Diet thing. Low and behold, guess who is the FIRST Platinum (highest level) Sponsor listed for the recent American Veterinary Medical Association Conference?? (September 2006)

Disclaimer: I am not dissing vets - I know that many are more enlightened beyond the Pet Hill Products view of optimal pet nutrition. And while my own vet is (IMO) not all that enlightened on the nutritional front, he is very knowledgeable and awesome with illness and injury issues. So my comments are not meant to be a vet dis.... AND I would like to compliment my vet for supporting our raw feeding decision, even though he feels he does not have enough scientific proof (in his opionion) to advocate that position. (OK - now I'm way off topic on my own topic...)

Thanks for helping me "shore up" my facts in my radical POV. <img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Beth

Oh, I know, Beth, and I want to cry when people recite the Gospel according to Hill's and often have NO IDEA who paid for the conference/course/"research."

I'll check out my saved stuff for environmental contamination articles.

P.S. My own vet is not pro-fresh. She doesn't try to scare me, though, and she does go so far as to say "I cannot argue with your results." But it's always in a "You lucked out" tone of voice.

Bacteria & Raw Feeding

The risk to humans

The Salmonella Risk

Beth - I would ask why do you even care what these other people say? You know your right and your never going to change the radicals. I would compare it to trying to change PETA. It's just not going to happen.

I do think the vast majority of the Vet community should hang their head and be ashamed. Someone does need to diss them. What they do with vaccinations and selling Science Diet is ridiculous. In fact I think its a crock of s%$@. Who do these people think they are?

I could sell choke chains or head halters in my business but I don't because I know they are wrong. In my opinion making a profit on them is not worth the compromise.

These Vets either:

A: don't care
B: don't want to take the time to try to learn
C: only listen to the fools (salesmen who sell science diet)
D: are more interested in making a dollar than doing the right thing.
E: ALL OF THE ABOVE

I would ask that Vet to have a few meals of his favorite bag of Science Diet then see if he got a good dose of Salmonella poisoning (because salmonella is in his bag of Science diet too - just have it tested). Then he should ask himself why dogs don't get salmonella poisoning from eating from the exact same bag?

The answer is because dogs are not humans. They can digest things we can't.

I found this out 4 or 5 years ago. I was driving to NM with my dogs, my son, and Bernhard Flinks and his son. We had been on the road for several days seeing the west - I had a cooler of raw chicken on ice. I got up one morning about 6 AM - went out, fed the dogs and took them for a walk (before I washed my hands) On my walk I peeled and ate an orange.

About 4 hours later I was projectile vomiting. I have had my share of a few bad hang overs but salmonella poisoning brings new meaning to the word PUKE! Did you know that if you are sick enough you can puke enough to make a toilette flush? I never knew that until then.

Well all the while I had my head in the toilette my dogs were taking a nice nap out in their crates. They ate the same thing I got sick from -only about 10,000 time more than the juice I had on my hands.

Why didn't they get sick? I'll tell you why, dogs have a different digestive system than humans. They can deal with things that would make us so sick we cry for our mothers.

So back to your lists - some of these people are beginners that don't know any better, some are Science Diet prostitutes, and some are just brain washed.

 Quote:

Bacteria & Raw Feeding

The risk to humans

The Salmonella Risk

That first one (which I think is the same source as the second one) is one of my all-time faves. It contains the excellent recommendation: "do not eat dog poo " <img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />.

The last one, if I recall, has the wonderful comment about being worried about dog poop maybe containing salmonella -- when it comes from human-grade poultry...... poop is infected, maybe, but it's not a worry that this is from the dog eating chicken sold for human consumption?

Good citations.

I am hoping to find one about non-poop-garbage and its infection challenges.

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......Did you know that if you are sick enough you can puke enough to make a toilette flush? I never knew that until then.....

<img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Wher's the darned rolling-on-the-floor laughy-face when we need it?

Sorry, Ed.

You are so 100% correct, and it's so 100% apparent that it makes me worry about the brainwashing vets must go through at the hands of the Science Diet Cult (yes, by far the worst offender, IMHO).

FWIW, I don't get the big to-do over salmonella. Sure, worry if your immune system is weak, or there are really young or really old people in the household, but otherwise, who cares? Please pass the salmonella and the salt!

I've eaten raw/undercooked meat and I'm still here. I've eaten raw/undercooked eggs and I'm still here. I handle reptiles and I'm still here. I've eaten foods left out a little too long and I'm still here. Yes, I'm human, yes I have gotten sick over food numerous times but most of them were over cooked foods. Now a dog is *designed* for this nonsense. I don't understand why people freak out about their dogs and salmonella. If they're really worried, have separate cutting boards, a spray bottle with dilute bleach solution, and handy disposable latex gloves.

I agree with Ed here. If people whine about salmonella and such nonsense with their dogs, smile, nod, and walk away. Dogs eat crap, drink from toilets, eat out of garbage cans, slurp urine, so I think they can handle raw, USDA-inspected meat.

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Beth - I would ask why do you even care what these other people say? You know your right and your never going to change the radicals. I would compare it to trying to change PETA. It's just not going to happen.

Ed, thank you for weighing in and sharing more of your experience. Nobody is going to change MY mind - I'M considered The RADICAL in the discussion I'm involved in. <img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> And I appreciate the support "almost real time" here at Leerburg -you are "shoring me up" with even more facts to change at least one mind, and maybe several - beyond what I've seen with my own two eyeballs.

I will probably cut and paste some very sad comments later on. Absent any concrete support for why dogs should be eating corn/peanut hulls/Chicken By-Product Meal/rice, etc., a "smokers v. dog food choices" topic was raised. Sheesh. As an adult human, "I" make the choice to smoke or not. My dogs choices are quite limited to what I give them.......

Will check back later - thanks for the support. At least I have a dog groomer from the UK in my camp, who has seen the difference in skin coats, allergy issues, enless repetitive infections (i.e. ears) etc.

Thanks to all for providing info so quickly!!

Beth