Need some advice regarding the recall.

My GSD pup, now 8 months old, is doing well in most aspects of basic obedience work. We have just begun heeling, sits, downs, stays, and other work with distractions. This doesn't seem to phase her.

But the recall...oh, the dreaded recall...only the most important thing she will ever need to know, I'm sure...

She could care less about treats...doesn't really bother much with toys...even on the long line she gets about 2 ft in front of me & then blows past me.

Now, she was doing really wonderfully with a rope toy though. She will come and do a nice front finish, then I'll play a little tug with her. I always win, always. And we repeat: she stays, I walk away, call her, she comes, she gets to play a little tug.

I'm not sure if this is a good idea or not. Comments would be appreciated.

Also, would appreciate any tips on using an e-collar to teach the recall.

I have the e-collar DVD...but it's a Christmas gift and I don't "know" about it lol...also ordered the Dominant & Aggressive Dog DVD...and am working my way through the Basic Obedience DVD. I'm hoping these will help a little too. I think Building Drive & Focus will be next...as she lacks in both I believe, though she is young yet and I'm used to my ball crazy older female.

We didn't get her until she was 4.5 months old, so I feel like I'm playing catch up. The list is getting shorter, but we still have to conquer the recall & CATS!

Thanks in advance!

-Melissa

Whoawhoawhoa, definately NO e-collar at 8 months of age. This dog has only been with you for 3.5 months and definately does not understand 100% what "come" (or "here" or whatever you use) means. That means it's completely unfair to expect the puppy to always oblige and completely unfair to correct it for not doing something it doesn't "get".

I would take a few steps back. I'd ditch the long line for a 6' leash and move from the backyard to the kitchen, living room, or other low-distraction place in the house. Train a hungry dog with treats: "forget" to feed her the night before and you will most likely have some more drive in her for cookies.

What are your goals with this dog? If you want to do Schutzhund, I believe the advice is that when playing tug, the dog should always win. It builds the dog's confidence, plus gives it an incentive to work for the tug - why work if if I never win? You didn't mention any dominance/aggression problems, so I think you can let that DVD gather dust for a little while and instead immediately, if not before, get the Drive/Focus. That will show you the correct way to build drive and play with the tug (and get it back from the dog when you need to). It has been invaluable for me.

I heartily second the suggestion to move back to a 6' leash in a low distraction setting. Read Ed's theory of corrections: http://www.leerburg.com/corrections.htm

Good luck!

Katherine - I understand what you are saying re: a low distraction place in the house. The problem is that her recalls in a situation like that are 100% o.k. I believe this demonstrates that she does know the meaning of the command, but under distractions, her short little attention span is quickly re-routed. In the house, I am the most interesting thing to her, but out in the real world...well...wood chips take precedence lol. I should have been more specific about when and where this problem occurs, but forgive me, as it's a long week and by Friday night, I'm pretty well brain dead. We've been doing solid recalls in the house for about a month.

As for the e-collar, I'll just allow us to have differing opinions about that one as we have used it successfully to stop her fence-line running and are using it (under the guidance of a trainer) to help overcome her issue with cats.

Anita- I will certainly buy the Building Drive & Focus...sounds like something that will help a lot. I do need direction as to when I should let her have, when I shouldn't. Getting it back isn't any problem.

As for my goals, I'm hoping she'll be into Rally-O and agility like my other girl...She already shows interest in agility equipment, like low contact obstacles & a few other things that are safe for her to do as a pup. Also, thinking about doing some tracking as she really has quite the nose...no Schutzhund goals however.

She is really a whole new world to me...my older female worships the ground I walk on...The pup, well, she's as independent as they come, pretty low drive, and I'm sure she has the devil on her conscience telling what move to make next lol.

I'd also back off on using the e-collar right now, and do the 'starve' the dog thing for meals and make up the calories during training.

Are you using REAL treats? I'm talking liver brownies, chicken, liver, kidneys, roast beef, cheese................something you got out of YOUR fridge and not the dog food aisle.

I always use treats to initially train, and then start randomly reinforcing with the food and adding THE TUG TOY!!!! I always use a tug that I can 'hide' in the back waistband of my pants/shorts so my hands are left free and the toy isn't such a huge distraction dangling in the open. And then I gradually start randomly reinforcing 'the toy' to wean off that. As important as any reward is, is also the weaning away so if you do NOT have treats or a toy on you, the dog will still obey. This Site is a bit long and may make your brain explode but it explains all the different ways we reward (or not) our dogs and why it works (or not) in training.

I also let my dog sometimes win, and sometimes I win. I usually have to 'win' when I need to do some more training and don't want to spend as much time on 'the game'. That said, when I'm starting training, particularly WITH an young dog, we do WAY MORE fun and reinforcing behaviors during training, then 'work'.

And if I get a good basis with the tugging/treats/obedience then what happens is the dog thinks the entire thing is a wonderful game and can't WAIT to come out in the yard to learn and 'play'. Really and active and drivey participant rather than a dog just going thru the paces so when it's OVER they are rewarded. I want the 'obedience' to be part of the fun, not something that just needs to be grimly gotten thru.

The best obedience books that I have read that mix praise/treats/toys with obedience in a method that I understood (as did my dogs LOL) were the ones called Steppin' Up To Success w/Terri Arnold (with Anne Paul). They also use the prong collar and believe there's a place to be strict, but the BEGINNING stages are all about building the relationship and attention from your dog so they learn to LOVE to learn with you. The books are broken down into a week by week training schedule too, so it's easier to go along at a proper pace. Good pictures and descriptions. http://www.dogwise.com/itemdetails.cfm?ID=DTO181 you can take a look at them.

I do use an e-collar, but not for all the initial training. And my dogs really get all the initial stuff. With both my GSD's I ended up using the collar ONLY under extremes, and that would be involving chasing wildlife, more specifically the DEER that will be standing 5' off my front door when I let the dogs out in the morning!

Additionally, I've raised 3 practically perfect adult dogs (13 yrs, 8 yrs, and 3!) And for all of them I've been on these boards, read lots, gotten videos, talked to friends......... but the BEST help was a great set of DOG CLASSES!~ There are good and not so good classes, but I've learned from all of them. I meet other crazy dog people. Get INSTANT feedback and training suggestions (otherwise I tend to keep doing the same thing wrong (not knowing it) and getting SO frustrated (angry?) cause MY DOG is still not getting it!!!! It's amazing how someone who's helped trained HUNDREDS (thousands?) of dogs may know what they are talking about and be able to give tiny little suggestions that make a huge difference.

You live in the NJ area I can suggest the K9 Campus in Randolph, NJ Click Here

Is it too far to drive to NJ to train from Michigan? (just read your location, sorry)

Well, Jenn...I think NJ is just a little out of my range lol

So to address what you said...which makes tons of sense to me by the way!

I agree re: the E-Collar. I actually bought the DVD to work my older dog off-leash so we can prepare for advanced Rally-O work. I am worried however that my pup will never have a good recall and I do want a fast way to teach a reliable one. Honestly, if she accidentally got out of the house, it could be disasterous.

I do use good treats & have a pretty large variety because my adult has some pretty funky food sensitivities that limits the "dog" treats I use.

As far as your explanation of the way to use treats/tug...gosh...that makes so much sense to me! I do want her to have fun...maybe I have been making things to serious, wouldn't be the first time! Our other obedience work is coming along great, but I also just throw in little training sessions or we do some "moves" while on our daily walk.

I will also read the site you suggested and check out the book. BTW, I am a dog class junkie...I agree 110% on that.

Thanks!
Melissa