I was thinking about how to handle breeding contracts today. I won't be breeding dogs for a really long time, but I'm ont of those people who like to be prepared.

When I read forums, I see peopel getting screwed by bad breeders. I also see breeders getting screwed by bad people. Specifically those who buy a "pet", sign an contract, and end up breaking their contract by breeding them.

How frequent are these breeder screw overs and would this be a situation to be prepared for, also how would one prepare for this situation?

I've thought about tubal ligation on females and the vesectomy on the males. I know the procudure only takes 30 minutes with males, probably the same with females. Does anyone have experience in this area? What can you really do if they break their contract?

THe problem still exists people will even buy mutts, even if the pup is not registered people would buy it. These type of people happened to be past neighbors so I know how they tend to think. If the perpetrator is outside my jurisdiction, how would I handle the problem?

I personally don't think anyone breeding unregistered puppies is getting more out of selling them than they're putting in by feeding them. It's stupid, those people will breed themselves out.

I would say that the only way to protect your pup from what happens after it leaves you (whether it be breeding or abuse and neglect) is to thouroughly screen potential buyers! Make them go through some tough checks. That may seem obnoxious to some people--well, then, don't sell to them. Personally, I would expect a better pup from a breeder who cared a lot about where their puppy ended up.

I am NOT a breeder, nor have I ever been. But I will say that this is business and THAT I have been involved in for years. Enforcing a contract, even when you have clear proof, is tough enough. Yes, you want as good of a contract as you can get, but really...you don't want to deal with litigation if you can help it. It'll be expensive and a pain in the ass, you might not win and the puppies that "pet" dog bred will still be on the planet.

Best option: Get good people. Check up on them. Don't sell to t hem if they seem shady. You said you're familiar with those kind of people so then you should know who to avoid.

About tubal ligation and vasectomy, I don't know for sure, but my first instince is that's a pretty nasty thing to put a puppy 8 weeks or under through.

Just my early morning 2 cents!

ditto to what amber says: trust your gut about people. that's even more important than checking references and records, though of course, do that, too.

you can't really enforce the terms of the contract. the owner can do what they want, and you can't stop them from breeding, or make them neuter. i've discussed this with my dog's breeder, who has been a breeder for nearly 30 years. what you can do is write a contract in such a way that if they do violate the terms, you can sue them for breach of contract. and also, you might be able to get the dog back.

some breeders get around this by only selling a co-ownership, so they can retain rights and control of the dog. of course, they only want to do this with pups that seem likely to do well in the ring.

but co-ownerships are a real pain unless you are friends with the co-owner. and of course, this is impractical for pet puppies, not to mention that most puppy buyers will go elsewhere. i once turned down an opportunity to get a really great puppy because the breeder wanted a co-ownership. i figured, if she doesn't trust me, i don't want a relationship with her.

be careful about who you trust, but then, trust them to do the right thing. you'll have a relationship with your puppy buyers for a long time, and trust needs to be mutual.

If the dogs you are selling have AKC papers, you can apply for limited registration, so that the owners can not register the dog unless they send in a certificate from the vet saying the dog is spayed or neutered, kind of like the ILP program.

At the very least the idiots who breed them can't put "AKC registered" -- or they can, but any puppy buyer worth their snuff would look into it.

Looking into the background of whoever is thinking of buying a puppy is a great idea. Do you know how much crap you can pull up on a person via a Google search? It's insane, try it some time.

Also, watching where you advertise litters can help prevent this. Don't advertise in the local newspaper, advertise with other breeders and on forums similar to Leerburg. Try to focus your advertising towards people who would want a working puppy, not towards people who want a pet. You might still pick up a couple of "pet" people this way, but hey, if they're using boards like Leerburg's, they probably have a few brain cells rattling around upstairs!

David,
I agree with katherine, a limitation on the papers is best.Judgement and gut instinct , is not enough.The nicest people can screw you the best.It's done everyday. You can filter out a lot of unwanted buyers with a limitation on the registration.When they hear that in order to have the papers release they need to show spaying or neutering, you will see how many people that had "breeding " in mind will never call back.I have also seen some contract that will only release the papers if they earn a sport title.I really for me don't like the fact that just because people getting a title on their dogs give them the right to breed.I have see plenty of titiled dogs that shouldn't be breed, but it will put delay giving out the papers.You won't save them all(pups) from bad apples but having a good system is a start

actually the AKC limited registration means not that the dog isn't registered until it's spayed or neutered - but that the dog's puppies, if they bred her, could not be registered if either parent has limited registration. So the owner could participate in AKC obedience, agility, etc - have full ownership of the dog (no co-ownership needed), their name is on the AKC papers - it is a real AKC registration - the limited which the breeder chooses when the application is filled out, just means the dog cannot be bred (puppies can't be registered). That way, an owner can choose not to neuter or spay their dog (I don't see any reason not to spay, but some people's personal preference is to leave males intact, even if they don't plan on breeding).
I sell all of my puppies with limited registration, and I'm happy to change the registration to full when/if the dog has a working title and adult passing hip rating (and is therefore breedworthy according to the SV and my own rules and guidelines for my own program)

molly

 Quote: David Ross

THe problem still exists people will even buy mutts, even if the pup is not registered people would buy it. These type of people happened to be past neighbors so I know how they tend to think. If the perpetrator is outside my jurisdiction, how would I handle the problem?

As a result of his last paragraph, I think the OP knows about the limited registration issue. I thought he was talking about making the dogs sterile in case people tried to breed them even WITH limited registration.

Maybe you can clear this up David?

 Quote: molly graf

actually the AKC limited registration means not that the dog isn't registered until it's spayed or neutered - but that the dog's puppies, if they bred her, could not be registered if either parent has limited registration. So the owner could participate in AKC obedience, agility, etc - have full ownership of the dog (no co-ownership needed), their name is on the AKC papers - it is a real AKC registration - the limited which the breeder chooses when the application is filled out, just means the dog cannot be bred (puppies can't be registered). That way, an owner can choose not to neuter or spay their dog (I don't see any reason not to spay, but some people's personal preference is to leave males intact, even if they don't plan on breeding).
I sell all of my puppies with limited registration, and I'm happy to change the registration to full when/if the dog has a working title and adult passing hip rating (and is therefore breedworthy according to the SV and my own rules and guidelines for my own program)

molly

Molly, I LOVE the way you do things and I don't buy from breeders who insist on spay/neuter. If I pay full-price for a dog, who the hell are YOU to tell me what I have to do with his testicles?! You know?

I don't breed. But all of my dogs are intact. I prefer it this way. I have no problem not breeding (heck if I want to raise a whole litter of puppies, as one at a time is bad enough!) but whether or not I leave a dog intact is/should be 100% my business as the paying buyer.

If I'm going to put the work into training and competing with a dog, and if he/she does well, then it should be my perogative to then breed the dog (naturally, the breeder would change the registration to full AKC once I demonstrated the success and health of the dog).

I have seen sometimes where the SAME PUPPY has a price for limited registration and a higher price for full registration, and that is BS. Breeders aren't doing that for the health of the dog or the welfare of the breed. If you're a conscientious breeder, all pups should go with limited registration. Then if/when the buyer has proven the success and health of the dog, the registration should be changed so that they may breed if they so choose. This way, ALL the puppies are given the potential to succeed and ultimately breed, and rightfully so. At 8 weeks of age you cannot determine which pups should be bred and which should not be bred (unless of course there are obvious health defects and in these cases sure, go ahead and neuter/spay).

I just get my back up when a breeder tells me what I can/can't do with the actual physical body of a dog I pay full price for. Limited registration allows them to control the profitability a BAD byb'er would experience (thus limiting the chances of a byb'er running amuck breeding puppies) without dictating what the buyer must do with the actual physical dog they purchased.

Needless to say, I'm not into spaying/neutering. I guess if I was then it wouldn't make a difference.

I had a horse once who was a BEAUTIFUL gelding, gelded (neutered) before I bought him. This horse grew up to be one of the best reining horses my trainer/coach had ever worked with, and she said repeatedly what a shame it was he had been gelded. I guess that's where some of my opinion comes from. As far as I'm concerned, if I buy a dog it's my dog to do with as I please and (once achievement/health have been proven) if that includes breeding, so be it.

I think many breeders who go into the whole "spay/neuter" thing without giving consideration for people who want to work their dogs are just on high horses believing that no one can be as good of a breeder as them. And I don't even know WHAT to say about the ones charging two different prices for the same pup depending on whether or not you want to keep them intact.

Good breeders are "in it" to improve their breed, and contribute positive attributes. We do limit the registration on our pet quality pups, and have withheld papers on dogs we felt absolutely must not be bred until proof of spay or neuter is shown. If the dog is not being bred, it's not a problem to hold papers. Of course pet quality pups are sold for considerably less than premium stock suitable for breeding. As the breeder, I feel it is well within my rights to determine what's out there perpetuating our line. Our customers generally agree. But as I said, for us (and most good breeders) it's about improving the breed, not selling puppies. There is no shortage of buyers so we can be very picky about where they go. If someone doesn't like our policies, we recommend they go elsewhere to purchase their pup. We feel we are responsible for every life we bring into the world.

This is true and what I was trying to get at in my original post.

I wouldn't mind people breeding if they're in good shape about the whole breeding scene. I've a problem with people who 1) breed mutts(puggles, etc), and 2) are like my past neighbord breeding for money. They bought two goldies, let them mate, and let them stay outside, under the porch. They had the worst envionment I've bseen and they've done similar with their adopted kids. They buy steaks while the kids have hotdogs and cup a ramen. State even let them have more kids, makes me pissed off. It's these type of bad people I feel strongly about and wish they could be banned from owning any animal, also kids.

Even if I screen people thoughly, the fact is people can talk their way in to any situation.